Air density thought experiment

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

Quote from: JJA on July 10, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: Username on July 09, 2022, 04:11:55 PM

Quote from: JJA on July 07, 2022, 10:53:29 AM

Quote from: Username on July 07, 2022, 09:19:45 AM

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You still stated that local gravitational discrepancies are less than estimated in the round earth model. Can you explain where you got the data to support this?  Or your evidence that the force that makes this move in the heavens is NOT the same as the force that makes things fall? These are pretty strong claims to make without backing them up.

I stated that in reference to question being asked. Read the sentence before it. That said, iirc we got the data from GRACE and similar sources.

https://gracefo.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/47/gravity-anomaly-map-using-grace-data/

Where in that link does it back up your claim that these discrepancies are less than estimated in the round earth model?

Nothing in that link shows any evidence for disputing the theory of gravity, or the shape of the earth not being round.

You asked for where we got the data. I provided one of the sources. I'm confused as to why you were expecting NASA to prove the earth flat.

Sigh.  I asked you to back up your claim that the discrepancies are "less than estimated in the round earth model" multiple times now.

And I've told you again and again that I'm not going to spend my time defending a model I don't hold is true.

If you make a claim, you can't get upset when people ask you to back it up or clarify it.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

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Your exact quote for reference in case you forgot: "Local discrepancies are due to mass indeed having a gravitational pull. Unfortunately, its less than estimated in the round earth model due to it assuming the movements of the heavens are the same thing that makes things fall."

Yes, in reference to the model being discussed. Which I don't hold is true. I can't count the number of times I've said this and I'm just going to stop responding now.

If you make a claim, you can't get upset when people ask you to back it up or clarify it.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

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I'm asking how you determined this. What are the discrepancies? Can you point one out?

The discrepancies are the ones you yourself pointed out that had to do with why it isn't a constant 9.8m/s/s everywhere. We determined this by cross referencing GRACe and other data with local geography.

Yes, the Earth's gravity varies based on the density of the underlying material. This is entirely expected and normal. You were saying these variations are less than expected... and I keep asking less than expected by who? Flat earthers? Scientists? Jesus Christ? Gandhi?

If you make vague statements you are going to get asked questions about them.  This isn't even a debate, I'm simply asking just what the heck you are talking about.

I swear 99% of flat earth posts on this site is giving people the runaround when being asked for details.  Normally people just explain what they were saying.  Not spend days deflecting.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

As I said earlier, I'm sure you can find information about this within these forums.

AGAIN: I find both the air density theories and the accelerating earth to be ridiculous. The only benefit to the accelerating earth is that it has an answer to this question where as density theories do not. No, I don't care to defend this statement - I am simply relating one of the theories to you. They are indeed both ridiculous.

Jesus fucking christ man. Read the thread.

I am reading the thread, and you mentioned "the round earth model" having "less than expected" discrepancies.  YOu have yet to show any or even slightly clarify what you are trying to say there.

It's such a simple question.  I don't understand all the angst.

Except those questions have already been answered through the normal science that eventually discounted the acceleration hypothesis. Local discrepancies are due to mass indeed having a gravitational pull. Unfortunately, its less than estimated in the round earth model due to it assuming the movements of the heavens are the same thing that makes things fall. The density arguments may provide fruit, but it's unlikely as they have several flaws out of the box. Either way, we'll have to wait until they have matured enough to at least answer the questions that the silly accelerating earth already has.

Sure looks like I have no intent on defending claims the accelerating earth model makes. I was asked for what data was used for that assessment. I provided one of the sources.

Your entitlement does not warrant my effort to educate you on something you can find by reading.

Quote from: JJA on July 12, 2022, 02:07:54 PM

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

Quote from: JJA on July 10, 2022, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: Username on July 09, 2022, 04:11:55 PM

Quote from: JJA on July 07, 2022, 10:53:29 AM

Quote from: Username on July 07, 2022, 09:19:45 AM

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You still stated that local gravitational discrepancies are less than estimated in the round earth model. Can you explain where you got the data to support this?  Or your evidence that the force that makes this move in the heavens is NOT the same as the force that makes things fall? These are pretty strong claims to make without backing them up.

I stated that in reference to question being asked. Read the sentence before it. That said, iirc we got the data from GRACE and similar sources.

https://gracefo.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/47/gravity-anomaly-map-using-grace-data/

Where in that link does it back up your claim that these discrepancies are less than estimated in the round earth model?

Nothing in that link shows any evidence for disputing the theory of gravity, or the shape of the earth not being round.

You asked for where we got the data. I provided one of the sources. I'm confused as to why you were expecting NASA to prove the earth flat.

Sigh.  I asked you to back up your claim that the discrepancies are "less than estimated in the round earth model" multiple times now.

And I've told you again and again that I'm not going to spend my time defending a model I don't hold is true.

If you make a claim, you can't get upset when people ask you to back it up or clarify it.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

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Your exact quote for reference in case you forgot: "Local discrepancies are due to mass indeed having a gravitational pull. Unfortunately, its less than estimated in the round earth model due to it assuming the movements of the heavens are the same thing that makes things fall."

Yes, in reference to the model being discussed. Which I don't hold is true. I can't count the number of times I've said this and I'm just going to stop responding now.

If you make a claim, you can't get upset when people ask you to back it up or clarify it.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

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I'm asking how you determined this. What are the discrepancies? Can you point one out?

The discrepancies are the ones you yourself pointed out that had to do with why it isn't a constant 9.8m/s/s everywhere. We determined this by cross referencing GRACe and other data with local geography.

Yes, the Earth's gravity varies based on the density of the underlying material. This is entirely expected and normal. You were saying these variations are less than expected... and I keep asking less than expected by who? Flat earthers? Scientists? Jesus Christ? Gandhi?

If you make vague statements you are going to get asked questions about them.  This isn't even a debate, I'm simply asking just what the heck you are talking about.

I swear 99% of flat earth posts on this site is giving people the runaround when being asked for details.  Normally people just explain what they were saying.  Not spend days deflecting.

Quote from: Username on July 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM

As I said earlier, I'm sure you can find information about this within these forums.

AGAIN: I find both the air density theories and the accelerating earth to be ridiculous. The only benefit to the accelerating earth is that it has an answer to this question where as density theories do not. No, I don't care to defend this statement - I am simply relating one of the theories to you. They are indeed both ridiculous.

Jesus fucking christ man. Read the thread.

I am reading the thread, and you mentioned "the round earth model" having "less than expected" discrepancies.  YOu have yet to show any or even slightly clarify what you are trying to say there.

It's such a simple question.  I don't understand all the angst.

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Except those questions have already been answered through the normal science that eventually discounted the acceleration hypothesis. Local discrepancies are due to mass indeed having a gravitational pull. Unfortunately, its less than estimated in the round earth model due to it assuming the movements of the heavens are the same thing that makes things fall. The density arguments may provide fruit, but it's unlikely as they have several flaws out of the box. Either way, we'll have to wait until they have matured enough to at least answer the questions that the silly accelerating earth already has.

Sure looks like I have no intent on defending claims the accelerating earth model makes. I was asked for what data was used for that assessment. I provided one of the sources.

Your entitlement does not warrant my effort to educate you on something you can find by reading.

All righty. That was an amazing journey to avoid clarifying a simple comment.  At this point I don't really expect anything less.

Yeah I did a lot of clarification by reposting the original comment I told you to read.

Yeah I did a lot of clarification by reposting the original comment I told you to read.

If we can't agree about the shape of the planet we live on I doubt we are going to agree about this. I'll add it to the pile.

That sounds like more of a you thing. I agree with most people on here I disagree with on the shape of the earth on a great many things. But fair enough.

I and the others around me are not in a kiddie pool. We're in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. How does my displacement work there?

Whether it's a kids pool or an Olympic swimming pool or an ocean....etc, it's all the same displacement of your dense body mass of that water.

I thought we weren't talking about displacement, but how me exhaling only impacts me and not the other people very near to me when my exhale has somehow caused a pressure push across the entire earth.

No matter what you do you are always displacing whatever you are immersed in.
Your pressure push is not felt across the entire Earth. You're already immersed within the atmosphere or even the water if you are in a pool or sea...etc.
Your displacement of that cushioned just as it would be if you were dropped onto a huge sea of sponge balls.
Basically, the balls would be compressed in different configurations over a small expanse until your dense mass has been absorbed throughout that area.
Anyone close by would feel any impact you had if your dense mass was thrown into that area.

  How does the air know to only impact me out in the middle of the ocean circled by my 5 very close friends?

It doesn't. It would impact your friends but minimally, just as they would impact you in the same way.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 11, 2022, 09:15:46 PM

Nothing moves without applied energy/force.

And we know the air applies a net force upwards, and thus isn't causing the force/isn't the force.

It applies resistance to above and only applies a force to above if energy is applied by a dense mass within it.
We also know that something has to be pushing the air down to keep it pressurised.

It applies resistance to above and only applies a force to above if energy is applied by a dense mass within it.
We also know that something has to be pushing the air down to keep it pressurised.

It applies resistance and force in all directions. It is just that the force pushing an object up is slightly greater than the force pushing it down.

And yes, we know something has to be forcing the air down. But it isn't just to keep it pressurised, it is also to create the pressure gradient which is observed and measured.
And that means it can't just be something pushing down from the top.
Gravity solves that issue quite well.
I am yet to hear of a viable alternative.

Quote from: Stash on July 11, 2022, 11:19:32 PM

I and the others around me are not in a kiddie pool. We're in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. How does my displacement work there?

Whether it's a kids pool or an Olympic swimming pool or an ocean....etc, it's all the same displacement of your dense body mass of that water.

Quote from: Stash

I thought we weren't talking about displacement, but how me exhaling only impacts me and not the other people very near to me when my exhale has somehow caused a pressure push across the entire earth.

No matter what you do you are always displacing whatever you are immersed in.
Your pressure push is not felt across the entire Earth. You're already immersed within the atmosphere or even the water if you are in a pool or sea...etc.
Your displacement of that cushioned just as it would be if you were dropped onto a huge sea of sponge balls.
Basically, the balls would be compressed in different configurations over a small expanse until your dense mass has been absorbed throughout that area.
Anyone close by would feel any impact you had if your dense mass was thrown into that area.

Quote from: Stash

  How does the air know to only impact me out in the middle of the ocean circled by my 5 very close friends?

It doesn't. It would impact your friends but minimally, just as they would impact you in the same way.

So in this ocean with nearby friends scenario, if I exhale, the world is so pressurized that my friends around me would be impacted? They would actually sink a bit because I added air to the atmosphere?

What's weird too, is when we breathe, we're not adding or subtracting air from the atmosphere because we inhale it then put it back as we exhale it. It's a net zero.

More people are born than die. So as population has grown, why hasn't the pressure in the atmosphere changed by the magnitude of ever increasing amounts of mouthbreathers?

Have you done any measurements on how close-by individuals are impacted by a nearby person's exhalation?

he was asked years ago to produce a drawing shwoing how the air pushes down on a brick located inside a box.

how the air goes through the top fo the box to push the air in the box to push the brick.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2022, 11:24:42 PM

It applies resistance to above and only applies a force to above if energy is applied by a dense mass within it.
We also know that something has to be pushing the air down to keep it pressurised.

It applies resistance and force in all directions. It is just that the force pushing an object up is slightly greater than the force pushing it down.

And yes, we know something has to be forcing the air down. But it isn't just to keep it pressurised, it is also to create the pressure gradient which is observed and measured.
And that means it can't just be something pushing down from the top.
Gravity solves that issue quite well.
I am yet to hear of a viable alternative.

Gravity solves nothing. It can never be explained as a force. We've been over this so many times and gravity still cannot be explained in terms of how it works.
Merely saying it explains it well is a simple adherence to mainstream ideals.

So in this ocean with nearby friends scenario, if I exhale, the world is so pressurized that my friends around me would be impacted?

The inhale/exhale scenario is a force that affects the surroundings just like you blowing into the face of your friend from 5 feet away will change the air effect until it dissipates.

They would actually sink a bit because I added air to the atmosphere?

Nope.

What's weird too, is when we breathe, we're not adding or subtracting air from the atmosphere because we inhale it then put it back as we exhale it. It's a net zero.

It's a net zero after dissipation of the force applied.

More people are born than die. So as population has grown, why hasn't the pressure in the atmosphere changed by the magnitude of ever increasing amounts of mouthbreathers?

It's already part of the system. No gains were made in terms of dense mass, just a change of dense mass that equates to the same end result.

Have you done any measurements on how close-by individuals are impacted by a nearby person's exhalation?

The simple ones are there for you as in the movements in close quarters whether in a pool or blowing in the air and so on.
A bigger scale naturally sees little to no visual or feel effect on a small-scale force.

he was asked years ago to produce a drawing shwoing how the air pushes down on a brick located inside a box.

how the air goes through the top fo the box to push the air in the box to push the brick.

I provided it but you chose to act all silly.

Quote from: Stash on July 14, 2022, 10:09:14 AM

So in this ocean with nearby friends scenario, if I exhale, the world is so pressurized that my friends around me would be impacted?

The inhale/exhale scenario is a force that affects the surroundings just like you blowing into the face of your friend from 5 feet away will change the air effect until it dissipates.

I still don’t get it. If my friend and I are right up against each other, back to back, I massively exhale, why am I only impacted and not my friend? How does the air know to only push me down?

Quote from: Stash

They would actually sink a bit because I added air to the atmosphere?

Nope.

Why not? they’re right next to me

Quote from: Stash

What's weird too, is when we breathe, we're not adding or subtracting air from the atmosphere because we inhale it then put it back as we exhale it. It's a net zero.

It's a net zero after dissipation of the force applied.

Quote from: Stash

More people are born than die. So as population has grown, why hasn't the pressure in the atmosphere changed by the magnitude of ever increasing amounts of mouthbreathers?

It's already part of the system. No gains were made in terms of dense mass, just a change of dense mass that equates to the same end result.

How can no gains be made when world population is approximately 8 billion people today and it was about 2 billion people 100 yrs ago?

That’s like 6 billion people of additional dense mass.

Gravity solves nothing. It can never be explained as a force. We've been over this so many times

You are right, we have been over this so many times.
Gravity is just like the other fundamental forces, you have no rational objection to it, and it does explain things, which you are unable to show a fault with.

And of course, rather than try to defend your nonsense alternative, you just attack gravity.

How about you try to explain why there is a pressure gradient in the atmosphere in the first place, and then address the fact that this pressure gradient pushes things upwards.

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 14, 2022, 11:30:07 AM

he was asked years ago to produce a drawing shwoing how the air pushes down on a brick located inside a box.

how the air goes through the top fo the box to push the air in the box to push the brick.

I provided it but you chose to act all silly.

You drew an arbitrary arrow.

Just like gravity
Aribrtatyly down through everything.

Except gravity is a pull.
Yours is a push, using air.
So your air has to push through and through and thorugh.
Yet there are physical barriers
The roof
The floor
You didnt account for any or provide a mechanism.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 14, 2022, 09:46:06 PM

Quote from: Stash on July 14, 2022, 10:09:14 AM

So in this ocean with nearby friends scenario, if I exhale, the world is so pressurized that my friends around me would be impacted?

The inhale/exhale scenario is a force that affects the surroundings just like you blowing into the face of your friend from 5 feet away will change the air effect until it dissipates.

I still don’t get it. If my friend and I are right up against each other, back to back, I massively exhale, why am I only impacted and not my friend? How does the air know to only push me down?

Your friend would be impacted. Your energy expanding your body will in turn push him a little but him noticing this will be minimal to nothing in terms of his mindset.
And also the air doesn't know anything about pushing you down.
It's your actions that determine the crush back onto you by you pushing into the atmosphere or water.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 14, 2022, 09:46:06 PM

Quote from: Stash

They would actually sink a bit because I added air to the atmosphere?

Nope.

Why not? they’re right next to me

Because, as above. It comes down to you causing your own floatation or sinking by your own body energy you apply and your friend also.

Quote from: Stash

What's weird too, is when we breathe, we're not adding or subtracting air from the atmosphere because we inhale it then put it back as we exhale it. It's a net zero.

It's a net zero after dissipation of the force applied.

Quote from: Stash

More people are born than die. So as population has grown, why hasn't the pressure in the atmosphere changed by the magnitude of ever increasing amounts of mouthbreathers?

It's already part of the system. No gains were made in terms of dense mass, just a change of dense mass that equates to the same end result.

How can no gains be made when world population is approximately 8 billion people today and it was about 2 billion people 100 yrs ago?

That’s like 6 billion people of additional dense mass.
[/quote]Let's put this into better perspective.

Imagine being in a swimming pool that magically caters to a cycle of life, meaning 100 people are in that pool, and in that pool, there is a set amount of other organisms that consume bodily excretions from you but also organisms you can eat.

Outside of that pool, there is just a cover we will call atmosphere. A sealed unit and everything inside of it is all that there is at that time.

Ok now let's assume each people eat something from the pool.
The pool is 100 organisms less but those same organisms are now part of the people. Any gain on dense mass?

The answer is no.

When you excrete the organisms out they get ingested by other but still not gain.
Everything is still there

Your friend would be impacted. Your energy expanding your body will in turn push him a little but him noticing this will be minimal to nothing in terms of his mindset.

Why is the friend impacted insignificantly, while the person breathing out impacted significantly?
Why the massive difference?

It comes down to you causing your own floatation or sinking by your own body energy you apply and your friend also.

How?
If it is the air pushing us down, it shouldn't matter.

Imagine being in a swimming pool that magically caters to a cycle of life, meaning 100 people are in that pool, and in that pool, there is a set amount of other organisms that consume bodily excretions from you but also organisms you can eat.

Outside of that pool, there is just a cover we will call atmosphere. A sealed unit and everything inside of it is all that there is at that time.

Ok now let's assume each people eat something from the pool.
The pool is 100 organisms less but those same organisms are now part of the people. Any gain on dense mass?

The answer is no.

When you excrete the organisms out they get ingested by other but still not gain.
Everything is still there

So why should breathing out cause a difference?
All that does is transfer it from inside you to outside you.
It is all still there. You haven't magically added air.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 21, 2022, 12:15:36 AM

Imagine being in a swimming pool that magically caters to a cycle of life, meaning 100 people are in that pool, and in that pool, there is a set amount of other organisms that consume bodily excretions from you but also organisms you can eat.

Outside of that pool, there is just a cover we will call atmosphere. A sealed unit and everything inside of it is all that there is at that time.

Ok now let's assume each people eat something from the pool.
The pool is 100 organisms less but those same organisms are now part of the people. Any gain on dense mass?

The answer is no.

When you excrete the organisms out they get ingested by other but still not gain.
Everything is still there

So why should breathing out cause a difference?
All that does is transfer it from inside you to outside you.
It is all still there. You haven't magically added air.

Because like I said it's energy transfer but it does to alter the overall dense mass of the entirety.

Because like I said it's energy transfer but it does to alter the overall dense mass of the entirety.

Having the air magically push down on you isn't energy transfer, and there is no reason for it to affect the people nearby.


Just what energy is being transferred and why should it push you down?
And perhaps more importantly, when you do this to a solid glass vessel, why does it push it up?

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 21, 2022, 03:42:48 AM

Because like I said it's energy transfer but it does to alter the overall dense mass of the entirety.

Having the air magically push down on you isn't energy transfer, and there is no reason for it to affect the people nearby.


Just what energy is being transferred and why should it push you down?
And perhaps more importantly, when you do this to a solid glass vessel, why does it push it up?

If you breathe you transfer your expansion of body back into the atmosphere by crushing back what you took from it.
It's no net gain but it is a transferrable energy.

but air pushes in all directions.
updownleftrightfrontback.

so why DOWN?
if the dome is firm enough to push against then the push would happen in all direction.

Quote from: JackBlack on July 21, 2022, 04:43:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 21, 2022, 03:42:48 AM

Because like I said it's energy transfer but it does to alter the overall dense mass of the entirety.

Having the air magically push down on you isn't energy transfer, and there is no reason for it to affect the people nearby.


Just what energy is being transferred and why should it push you down?
And perhaps more importantly, when you do this to a solid glass vessel, why does it push it up?

If you breathe you transfer your expansion of body back into the atmosphere by crushing back what you took from it.
It's no net gain but it is a transferrable energy.

Which still fails to address the question.
There is no change in the atmosphere. All that has happened is the air has left you and gone out of you.

Why should this cause the atmosphere to magically push you down, and why should it cause the atmosphere to magically push down those around you?

ok let's try and clear something up


air is air
we can measure it
weigh it
do experiments on it
change its composition.



then we have the aether.
the magical thing that you claim pushes people down.



is aether and air the same?
oxygne floating around the same thing that pushes people down?

So this weekend I tried something in my pool.  I blew a balloon up while trying to float.  It was hilarious as my coordination isn't what it used to be.  But since that exhaled air/energy was trapped by the balloon, why did I sink, yet my son didn't?  Granted there was alot of laughing at the absurdity of the thought experiment and my unintentional attemps to drown myself were rather funny, but we did try to be serious a few times. 
Pool was filled with fresh water and chlorine, standard party Ballon, in the 10 ft deep section of the pool, as minimal movement used as necessary to remain stationary.  My son was 2 ft from me, we tried all 4 cardinal directions from me being the center point.  We both took a deep breath at the same time. My son held his breath, while I exhaled into the balloon.  I sank, he did not.  We also tried without the balloon with the same results.  Then had a big laugh at how stupid the concept was.

Balloon was above water above you?
Or underwater and under you?

It has to displace



Also
How black you are is also a factor





Hahaha

Above, and yes I realize black people tend to sink lol. 

I didn't want the buoyancy of the air filled balloon in the water to affect my ability to float.

but air pushes in all directions.
updownleftrightfrontback.

so why DOWN?
if the dome is firm enough to push against then the push would happen in all directions.

The down is subject to the dense mass within it from the most pressurised part of the stack which to us, is always at the bottom.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 21, 2022, 08:24:48 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on July 21, 2022, 04:43:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 21, 2022, 03:42:48 AM

Because like I said it's energy transfer but it does to alter the overall dense mass of the entirety.

Having the air magically push down on you isn't energy transfer, and there is no reason for it to affect the people nearby.


Just what energy is being transferred and why should it push you down?
And perhaps more importantly, when you do this to a solid glass vessel, why does it push it up?

If you breathe you transfer your expansion of body back into the atmosphere by crushing back what you took from it.
It's no net gain but it is a transferrable energy.

Which still fails to address the question.
There is no change in the atmosphere. All that has happened is the air has left you and gone out of you.

Why should this cause the atmosphere to magically push you down, and why should it cause the atmosphere to magically push down those around you?

I explained this many many times to you and you refused to address it and came back with this exact same scenario.

ok let's try and clear something up


air is air
we can measure it
weigh it
do experiments on it
change its composition.



then we have the aether.
the magical thing that you claim pushes people down.



is aether and air the same?
oxygne floating around the same thing that pushes people down?

I've never said air pushes you down.
It has to take a dense mass to push up and use below leverage in order for that push back to happen.

Understand stacking and you'll understand what I mean.
I have explained it many many times but you refuse to understand it, for whatever reason.