Why Jesus was not the Messiah

Jesus's credibility as the Messiah the Jewish people foresaw is predicated on the fulfillment of certain prophesies set forth in the Old Testament.  But the writers of the New Testament seemed content to pick and choose what was needed to be fulfilled, blatantly ignoring some prophesies.

For example: "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

In other words, the Messiah would rule at a time of world peace.  This was clearly not the case in the days of Jesus, and arguably hasn't been the case since then.  In fact, the very idea of the Crusades is hypocritical in light of this fact.

But the Crusades may have been necessary in the eyes of the Middle Age Christians, because the Messiah was supposed to usher in a period when everybody in the world worshiped under one God:

"And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord" (Isaiah 66:23)

This passage is clear in its intent, but seems to be ignored by Christians.  Even if you make the supposition that all followers of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity worship the same God, you still have the Hindu as well as other smaller religions who do not, not to mention atheists, agnostics, and Buddhists who do not worship any God.

The Crusaders who spilled the blood of millions in the name of Christ tried to fulfill this prophecy, God love 'em (summarily ignoring the first prophecy mentioned, but they may have felt that was justified given that we've never had a period of world peace since the placement of Jesus as the Messiah anyway...) but failed even trying to force-feed their propaganda to the world at large.

In addition, the Messiah was supposed to be a direct male descendant of King David:

"And when your days [David] are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12-13) 

Since Jesus was not Joseph's biological son, it follows that he was not a direct descendant of David in the sense given here.

Even though I don't personally believe any of it, I thought it would be interesting to give a Jewish spin on the arguments for and against the Jesus myth, since it's not currently represented here.  If you consider these criteria (and there are other criteria that Jesus doesn't fulfill as well, these are really just the most glaring) you really can't accept Jesus as the Messiah.

If you take all this, combined with the facts that

1)there is no historical record of Jesus's time on earth;

2)many elements of the Jesus story come from pagan tradition; and

3)the books of the New Testament were written down long after the events supposedly took place,

you can see how the early Christians cobbled together bits and pieces of Old Testament and pagan lore to form a cult that is really based solely on myth.  The bottom line is that Jesus does not fulfill the most important prophesies set forth in the Old Testament in any way, so his credibility as the Messiah predicted by the Jews is non-existent.

Please repost on http://forums.christianity.com/Christian_Doctrine/forumid_50/tt.htm. But first, check out these videos:

(Walking on Water)
(Water to Beer)

Criss Angel is a fraud. He uses camera tricks, unlike real illusionists. He also hires people who pretend to be impressed to make him look more amazing.

Please repost on http://forums.christianity.com/Christian_Doctrine/forumid_50/tt.htm.

Maybe I will.   

But this being Religion and Philosophy I thought it was appropriate to post here.

Criss Angel is a fraud. He uses camera tricks, unlike real illusionists. He also hires people who pretend to be impressed to make him look more amazing.

QFT

I think he was a magician and orator who may or may not have been given a mission by God. But, you're right, certian bits don't add up.

Doesn't matter, the mods sit back because we, the normal members, have a nice ability to completely burn the offenders in retaliation. The offset neutralizes everything, and balance is restored.

I think he was a magician and orator who may or may not have been given a mission by God. But, you're right, certian bits don't add up.

Criss Angel? 

Sorry, but I think this was the fastest I've ever seen a topic get completely derailed here.  That's okay, I was just hoping to open a discourse with the more religious members of the forum.

Would you say it was off topic on first or second post?

First.

This is the norm, so shut up about it.

Are you kidding?  Somebody posts something about global warming causing falling sea levels weeks ago and people are still debating over it!

But I'm not gonna bitch about it.

You should be proud.

Criss Angel is a fraud. He uses camera tricks, unlike real illusionists. He also hires people who pretend to be impressed to make him look more amazing.

Do you have evidence for this claim?

I meant Jesus lol, but if you want a religious discussion I can talk, not that my religion has a name. But it has a higher power, and religious holidays everyytime I'm hungover...

Of course Jesus wasn't the Messiah: it's all fiction.  The Bible is the longest living piece of science fiction ever written. 

Of course Jesus wasn't the Messiah: it's all fiction.  The Bible is the longest living piece of science fiction ever written. 

And, of course, no one should question your undisputed authority on this matter.

That's entirely up to you.  If you respond with passive-aggressive 'arguments' then I will assume I am undisputed.  But I can do nothing other than state my opinion, of which I am an authority. 

First of all, you should make it clear for yourself if you believe in God Almighty or not.

If you do, then you must believe that a Messiah is to come on Earth. Now, whether he already arrived in the form of Jesus of Nasareth or not is a different argument.

But, if you use the Bible to prove Jesus is not the Messiah, like the OP did, you won't get anywhere, because the Bible is the Testemony that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

If you don't believe in God, then the term 'Messiah' has no meaning to you and you should not post in this thread. Also, what science fiction could have been represented in the Bible at that level of development of sciences.

But, if you use the Bible to prove Jesus is not the Messiah, like the OP did, you won't get anywhere, because the Bible is the Testemony that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

You miss the point entirely, Bushido.  The Old Testament is not "the testemony (sic) that Jesus is our Lord and Savior".  I was referring to it as such to make it plainer to the average reader exactly what books I was talking about.  I was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures, which were incorporated into the Christian Bible as the Old Testament, and which the whole religion of Christianity is supposed to have its basis in.

The point was that there are quotes therein that show that Jesus could not possibly have been the Messiah.  Do you see now how I can use the Old Testament to prove that Jesus is not the Messiah? 

The point of including the Old Testament in the Bible is only to show that Jesus fullfilled the prophecies in it.

And my point was to show that Jesus absolutely did not fulfill the prophesies in it.

First of all, you should make it clear for yourself if you believe in God Almighty or not.

If you do, then you must believe that a Messiah is to come on Earth. Now, whether he already arrived in the form of Jesus of Nasareth or not is a different argument.

But, if you use the Bible to prove Jesus is not the Messiah, like the OP did, you won't get anywhere, because the Bible is the Testemony that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

If you don't believe in God, then the term 'Messiah' has no meaning to you and you should not post in this thread. Also, what science fiction could have been represented in the Bible at that level of development of sciences.

Hmmm, if not sci-fi then the Bible is certainly fantasy. 

I do believe in god, as a pantheist and a humanist.  But I saw no disclaimer and Roundy himself said he(she?) does "not believe in any of this." So shut your big fat ugly face, Flanders. 

Not that I know much about the Bible ... but isn't just the New Testament the testimony to/of Jesus?  The Old makes predictions of a messiah, but it's entirely up to interpretation as to whether or not Jesus is said person, as is evidenced by the existence of the Jewish faith. 

For example: "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

In other words, the Messiah would rule at a time of world peace.  This was clearly not the case in the days of Jesus, and arguably hasn't been the case since then.  In fact, the very idea of the Crusades is hypocritical in light of this fact.

There was actually a long period of 500 year peace in the known world at Jesus's time. Minor rebellions are not considered a significant breach of peace.

But the Crusades may have been necessary in the eyes of the Middle Age Christians, because the Messiah was supposed to usher in a period when everybody in the world worshiped under one God:

"And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord" (Isaiah 66:23)

This passage is clear in its intent, but seems to be ignored by Christians.  Even if you make the supposition that all followers of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity worship the same God, you still have the Hindu as well as other smaller religions who do not, not to mention atheists, agnostics, and Buddhists who do not worship any God.

The Crusaders who spilled the blood of millions in the name of Christ tried to fulfill this prophecy, God love 'em (summarily ignoring the first prophecy mentioned, but they may have felt that was justified given that we've never had a period of world peace since the placement of Jesus as the Messiah anyway...) but failed even trying to force-feed their propaganda to the world at large.

Irrelevant.

In addition, the Messiah was supposed to be a direct male descendant of King David:

"And when your days [David] are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12-13) 

Since Jesus was not Joseph's biological son, it follows that he was not a direct descendant of David in the sense given here.

Mary was from the Line of David, as explained in the Gospel of Mathew. If you wanted to represent the Hebrew side, you would have known that religion is passed from the mother's side.

and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

(Matthew 1:16)

 

And in what way is it irrelevant that it was predicted that all men would worship under one God and this has never been the case?

My mistake 

However, there are 28 generations from David to Christ. If only half of them had only 2 children, then that would amount to:

2^14 = 16,384

equal decendants to the David's line as Jesus. This is the population of a small town.

My mistake 

However, there are 28 generations from David to Christ. If only half of them had only 2 children, then that would amount to:

2^14 = 16,384

equal decendants to the David's line as Jesus. This is the population of a small town.

Irrelevant.

Only if you can explain why this specific child was chosen, as opposed to another. Wise men I guess, following that star...

Wise men.  Pfft.  Wise guys, ya mean.

"Myrrh? What's that?"

There was no need of Jesus to be a blood relative of Jospeh. By recognizing him as his firstborn son under the Law, he is is his decendant. Also, by admitting that Jesus is not the son of Joseph, but actually the Son of G-d, you pwn yorself and must reckongnize that he is actually the Messiah.