Alternative to the laryngeal theory

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2017, 10:48:20 AM »
@FlatEarthDenial: You know, I think we were all glad when you left linguistforum.com.
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What do you guys think about the controversy over PIE having voiceless aspirates? I think it's actually very plausible that it did have (mainstream linguistics holds that it didn't). Consider the pairs of Latin and Ancient Greek words such as "sapientia" and "sophia". Both of them mean "wisdom", and appear to be obviously related. Yet, if you assume PIE didn't have voiceless aspirates, the Latin word points to the reconstructed PIE root *seh2p, and the Ancient Greek word points to the reconstruction *soHbh. However, if you assume PIE did have voiceless aspirates, you can reconstruct the root *seh2ph, from which both the Latin and the Ancient Greek word can be derived. I wonder what you think about that?
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #181 on: October 11, 2017, 10:54:46 PM »
What, nobody here has thought about it except me?
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #182 on: December 16, 2017, 05:53:58 AM »
I've decided to try to make a web game about etymology:
http://flatassembler.000webhostapp.com/etymologist.html
What do you think about it? Is it worth to continue developing it?
Does my algorithm for simulating the evolution of languages produce convincing results? If not, why?
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #183 on: March 03, 2018, 12:18:49 PM »
Anyway, the game has been finished for quite a while now. Feedback would be appreciated. I don't think I would be able to add anything complicated to it though. It's hard to manage the 2000 lines of macaroni code it has now.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #184 on: December 26, 2018, 05:23:29 AM »
In case somebody is interested, you can read about my alternative interpretation of the Croatian toponyms here:
http://flatassembler.000webhostapp.com/toponyms.html
I am not planning to update it much any more. It's sort of complete, you can read about many things related to it there, such as Vulgar Latin (and why I think not so many Croatian toponyms come from Latin) and Croatian historical phonology. I've also contacted Dubravka Ivsic, who is perhaps the most prominent Croatian linguist these days, and posted her responses on that page, so that you can kind of hear both sides of the story. In case you are not that familiar with Croatian geography, I've included many links to Google Maps (I've made them be automatically generated by JavaScript, hopefully that's not illegal.), and, for those unfamiliar with Indo-European linguistics, I've included a few links to the Pokorny's etymological dictionary.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #185 on: March 24, 2020, 11:36:38 AM »
Anyway, I was banned from 000webhost for hate speech, so I moved to GitHub. The new URL of the web-game about historical linguistics is:
https://flatassembler.github.io/etymologist.html
And the web-page about the names of places in Croatia is here:
https://flatassembler.github.io/toponyms.html
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #186 on: March 18, 2021, 10:06:23 AM »
I have just made a validation of the algorithm used in Etymology Game. The results are not particularly impressive: https://flatassembler.github.io/validation_results.html
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #187 on: December 25, 2021, 09:38:33 PM »
I have tried to support my alternative interpretation of the names of places in Croatia mathematically: https://flatassembler.github.io/Karasica.doc

To summarize, I think that I have thought of a way to measure the collision entropy of different parts of the grammar, and that it is possible to calculate the p-values of certain patterns in the names of places using them. The entropy of the syntax can obviously be measured by measuring the entropy of spell-checker word list such as that of Aspell and subtracting from that an entropy of a long text in the same language (I was measuring only for the consonants, I was ignoring the vowels, because vowels were not important for what I was trying to calculate). I got that, for example, the entropy of the syntax of the Croatian language is log2(14)-log2(13)=0.107 bits per symbol, that the entropy of the syntax of the English language is log2(13)-log2(11)=0.241 bits per symbol, and that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is log2(15)-log2(12)=0.3219 bits per symbol. It was rather surprising to me that the entropy of the syntax of the German language is larger than the entropy of the syntax of the English language, given that German syntax seems simpler (it uses morphology more than the English language does, somewhat simplifying the syntax), but you cannot argue with the hard data. It looks as though the collision entropy of the syntax and the complexity of the syntax of the same language are not strongly correlated. The entropy of the phonotactics of a language can, I guess, be measured by measuring the entropy of consonant pairs (with or without a vowel inside them) in a spell-checker wordlist, then measuring the entropy of single consonants in that same wordlist, and then subtracting the former from the latter multiplied by two. I measured that the entropy of phonotactics of the Croatian language is 2*log2(14)-5.992=1.623 bits per consonant pair. That 5.992 bits per consonant pair has been calculated using some mathematically dubious method involving the Shannon Entropy (as, back then, I didn't know that there is a simple way to calculate the collision entropy as the negative binary logarithm of the sum of the squares of relative frequencies of symbols, I was measuring the collision entropy using the Monte Carlo method). Now, I have taken the entropy of the phonotactics to be the lower bound of the entropy of the phonology, that is the only entropy that matters in ancient toponyms (entropy of the syntax and morphology do not matter then, because the toponym is created in a foreign language). Given that the Croatian language has 26 consonants, the upper bound of the entropy of morphology, which does not matter when dealing with ancient toponyms, can be estimated as log2(26*26)-1.623-2*0.107-5.992=1.572 bits per pair of consonants. So, to estimate the p-value of the pattern that many names of rivers in Croatia begin with the consonants 'k' and 'r' (Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica), I have done some birthday calculations, first setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623 bits per consonant pair, and the second by setting the simulated entropy of phonology to be 1.623+1.572=3.195 bits per consonant pair. In both of those birthday calculations, I assumed that there are 100 different river names in Croatia. The former birthday calculation gave me the probability of that k-r-pattern occuring by chance to be 1/300 and the latter gave me the probability 1/17. So the p-value of that k-r-pattern is somewhere between 1/300 and 1/17. Mainstream linguistics considers that k-r pattern in Croatian river names to be a coincidence, but nobody before me (as far as I know) has even attempted to calculate how much of a coincidence it would have to be (the p-value). So I concluded that the simplest explanation is that the river names Karašica, Krka, Korana, Krbavica, Krapina and Kravarščica are related and all come from the Indo-European root *kjers meaning horse (in Germanic languages) or to run (in Celtic and Italic languages). I think the Illyrian word for "flow" came from that root, and that the Illyrian word for "flow" was *karr or *kurr, the vowel difference 'a' to 'u' perhaps being dialectical variation (compare the attested Illyrian toponyms Mursa and Marsonia, the names Mursa and Marsonia almost certainly come from the same root, but there is a vowel difference 'a' to 'u' in them). Furthermore, based on the historical phonology of the Croatian language and what's known about the Illyrian language (for example, that there was a suffix -issia, as in Certissia, but not the suffix -ussia), I reconstructed the Illyrian name for Karašica as either *Kurrurrissia or *Kurrirrissia, and the Illyrian name for Krapina as either *Karpona or *Kurrippuppona, with preference to *Karpona. Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 09:11:57 AM by FlatAssembler »
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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #188 on: December 26, 2021, 03:20:51 AM »
Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
More compelling than you could possibly imagine.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #189 on: December 26, 2021, 07:24:27 AM »
Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
More compelling than you could possibly imagine.
Thank you! Finally somebody does not think that I am insane.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #190 on: December 27, 2021, 04:37:15 AM »
Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
More compelling than you could possibly imagine.
I am interested, where have you learned so much linguistics and informatics that you can understand my arguments? What has made you interested in those things?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #191 on: December 27, 2021, 06:16:37 PM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #192 on: December 27, 2021, 09:17:57 PM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
Do you have some thoughts about my arguments?
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #193 on: December 27, 2021, 11:14:58 PM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
Do you have some thoughts about my arguments?

I do.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2021, 01:23:36 AM »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2021, 07:28:12 AM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
Do you have some thoughts about my arguments?

Trying to turn the evolution of language into a mathematics equation is a waste of time, because you can't account for all the variables. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2021, 01:12:27 PM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
Do you have some thoughts about my arguments?
Absolutely I do.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2021, 08:19:25 PM »
Yeah Jimmy, tell us about it.
Do you have some thoughts about my arguments?

Trying to turn the evolution of language into a mathematics equation is a waste of time, because you can't account for all the variables.
That is why I am trying to turn it into a computer program, rather than into mathematics equation.

EDIT: You may be interested in reading this: https://flatassembler.github.io/Fonoloska_evolucija_jezika.docx
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 08:22:09 PM by FlatAssembler »
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2021, 08:20:35 PM »
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #199 on: January 18, 2022, 08:25:03 AM »
What do you think, is it likely that this k-r root meaning "to flow" in the Croatian toponyms is not etymological root, but rather a phonosemantic root? I don't know which claim is more extraordinary. If I claim it is an etymological root, then I am saying the mainstream interpretation of the Croatian toponyms is wildly wrong (which I am not sure is such an extraordinary claim, as the mainstream interpretation of Croatian toponyms seems to be based on groupthink more than evidence). If I claim it is a phonosemantic root, then mainstream etymology of Croatian toponyms can still be correct, but then I am saying some weak form of the phonosemantic hypothesis is correct. As far as I understand, the vast majority of linguists would consider even a weak form of the phonosemantic hypothesis a very extraordinary claim.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #200 on: April 23, 2022, 02:57:05 AM »
I have recently made a YouTube video about my alternative interpretation of names of places in Croatia:
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #201 on: July 16, 2022, 01:19:07 AM »
My article has been published in Valpovački Godišnjak and is mentioned by Glas Slavonije: http://www.glas-slavonije.hr/vijest.aspx?id=498689

You can also read it on my website: https://flatassembler.github.io/Karasica
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #202 on: December 26, 2022, 12:59:14 PM »
What do you guys here think, are German "Tier" (animal) and Latin "fera" (wild animal) related? Both look like they might come from an Indo-European root such as *dheh1r, as PIE *dh changes to 't' in German and to 'f' in Latin at the beginning of a word.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #203 on: March 20, 2023, 08:17:11 AM »
A few months ago, I have published a new video about alternative linguistics, this time primarily about Etymology Game. Though I've also explained the informatics part of my alternative interpretation of the Croatian names of places in it:
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #204 on: April 18, 2023, 02:21:48 PM »
I've asked a new question slightly related to my paper on a linguistics forum: https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/q/46473/20821

Does a deep orthography (such as English or French) decrease the collision entropy of a written language? An obvious answer seems to be no, because spelling represents how a word was pronounced centuries ago, and it seems absurd to suggest that the collision entropy of a language always increases. But a glance at the data from my paper seems to suggest that's the case. I don't know if anybody has done an actual study on that.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #205 on: July 27, 2023, 07:55:59 AM »
BrianSoddingBoru4 on AtheistForums thinks that neuralbeans'es objection "Perhaps the nouns in the Croatian language have a significantly lower collision entropy than all the words in the Aspell spell-checking dictionary. Have you checked for that?" is a serious problem with my interpretation of the Croatian names of places. So, I've started a thread about it on two Internet forums to see if anybody is aware of some research on the topic, or at least how I can make an experiment to test that without spending days compiling a list of nouns in the Croatian language:
https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/q/47201/20821
https://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?p=99311279#post99311279
To me, what neuralbeans is saying seems like an obvious ad-hoc hypothesis to defend the mainstream interpretation of the names of places in Croatia: it is inventing the reasons why an experiment wouldn't work. Why would the collision entropy of different word classes (nouns, verbs, adjectives...) be different in the Croatian language? I can see why it would be in the Swahili language (because of the noun classes, verbs can start in some consonant pairs that nouns cannot start with), but I fail to see why it would be in the Croatian (or English) language. And why would the collision entropy of nouns be lower, rather than higher? Seems like a baseless ad-hoc hypothesis, right? And it's not a burden of proof on me to do some complicated experiment because of someone's ad-hoc hypothesis.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #206 on: March 30, 2024, 12:24:33 PM »
So, as far as I can tell, two years after I've published my paper "Etimologija Karašica", there are two arguments against the main idea of that paper which are not completely insane:
1. The neuralbeans'es objection that my experiment ignores the possibility that the collision entropy of the nouns (and toponyms are nouns) in Croatian language is significantly lower than the collision entropy of all of the words in the Aspell word-list. The collision entropy of the Croatian Aspell word-list is 5.992 bits per consonant pair, and perhaps the collision entropy would be significantly lower if we included only the nouns. If so, the upper bound of the p-value would be much higher than 1/17. But that's, if you ask me, an obvious ad-hoc hypothesis: why would the collision entropy of nouns be lower, rather than higher? If Croatian had a Swahili-like grammar in which nouns can only start with a few prefixes, that would be a valid argument, but it doesn't. And it's not a burden of proof on me to do some insanely complicated experiment because of somebody's ad-hoc hypothesis.
2. The DarkDivider's objection that Proto-Slavic phonotactics didn't allow four syllables with yers to be consecutive. If that's the case, my supposed Proto-Slavic form of the river name "Karašica", *Kъrъrьsьja (from Illyrian *Kurrurrissia), is impossible. To which I respond simply with: "Citation needed!". Is there any remotely reliable source that claims that about Proto-Slavic phonotactics?
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Alternative to the laryngeal theory
« Reply #207 on: Today at 11:02:10 AM »
I've just uploaded a video in which I present 5 arguments for Illyrian being a centum language:
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