FAQ shooting

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FAQ shooting
« on: January 17, 2008, 04:08:02 PM »
If the FAQs on this site represent the views of the FE crowd, they need some review because most of the FEs discount, disagree with or have disproven the points themselves.
So here's a quick skeet-shoot of the fact page.
Get on board, it's great fun...

Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"
A: It's a conspiracy
Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"
A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.
If every government is part of the conspiracy, who benefits? Why go to all this trouble?

Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"
A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.
What rubbish, weather balloons launched from Tasmania or Greenland (or Caltech or MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, RMIT Uni. of Melb.) will quite happily do it for you.


Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"
A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
The moon landing hoax has been so thoroughly debunked this question is lost in irrelevance.

PLEASE NOTE This means that pictures confirming the roundness or flatness of the Earth DO NOT IN THEMSELVES CONSTITUTE VALID PROOF.
Because of your hand-waving.

Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?"
A: The motive is unknown although it is probably money
Money for who, from who? Paranoia is not proof

Q: "If you're not sure about the motive, why do you say there is a conspiracy?"
A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.
My girlfriend got pregnant, since we’ve never had sex, it must be a virgin birth. Hallelujah, the messiah comes again! Or she’s cheating on me. Reducto ad absurdum.


Q: "The government could not pull off the conspiracy successfully"
A: Actually, they could.
How? What is needed, who is involved, etc etc.
Q: "How are the world governments organized enough to carry out this conspiracy?"
A: They only appear to be disorganized to make the conspiracy seem implausible.
Oh man that’s not worth a rational answer.

Q: Why hasn’t this site been shut down by the government?
A: Doing so would prove that the government is hiding something.
In the world of the deluded crackpot, this one actually makes sense.

Q: No way could the government possibly guard the entire Ice Wall!  It would take too many men!  Millions of men!
A: Not really.  You could do it with a few hundred and some basic equipment.
Where are they stationed, what equipment would they need? Almost 25000 miles to be watched by a few hundred? Do have any idea how many troops there are stationed on the border between North and South Korea? And they have people crossing the border all the time! Let’s call it 200 men, which gives them each 1500 miles to patrol. They’d want to be fit!
What about scientific research stations, the commercial runway that was just opened? Australian environment minister Peter Garret was flown to Antarctica along with a few hundred scientists, journalists and VIPs. Although they’re all ‘in on it’ I guess.


Q: Why is NASA’s space shuttle runway curved?
A: It was specially constructed by NASA to be so. After all NASA are at the heart of the conspiracy.
No, it’s the governments. All of them. Don’t contradict yourself now! NASA built a straight runway. It’s curved because it’s long.


The Earth in space


Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"
A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles
Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"
A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.
How do these work? Actual physical proof. Day and night could not possibly exist in your ‘model’. Think harder.

In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards.
No they’re not. We live in an espanding universe. 

The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles)
Then why do they get bigger when seen through a telescope. Earth based telescopes? I.R, Radio frequency, X-Ray, CBR…….

Q: "Please explain sunrises/sunsets."

A: It's a perspective effect.  Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it disappears because everything gets smaller and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.
But the sun doesn’t get smaller as it sets. It goes down. Down, like it would if the earth were round. Light doesn’t bend y’know. It travels in perfectly straight paths. The only thing capable of affecting its travel is gravity. Got a black hole in there somewhere?

Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?"
A: The Earth is not one of the other planets.  The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways.
Explain how.

Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"
A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth.  The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites.
What’s a pseudolite? If it hangs above the earth, then it’s a satellite. And how come I lose reception when I take my GPS indoors? I still get phone coverage.

Q: "What's underneath the Earth?" aka "What's on the bottom?" aka "What's on the other side?"
A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.
Yeah I’ve read Terry Pratchett too.

Q: "What about gravity?"
A: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s^2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.
Well it can’t be because you’ve not included the mass of the earth. When you include that we’d have more than one G. Or one G wouldn’t be one G as we know it, it’d be one G as it would be in….. ooh I’m starting to sound like you…..
The earths gravity is caused by the earths mass. If the earth had no gravity it would have no mass. That would be interesting.


Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them.  The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.
Oh dear Lord yes, this version’s flawed. Planes do crash. And re-check your principals of lift, I think you’ll find it’s more to do with air than acceleration, y’know wing camber causing pressure differences, higher pressure moving to lower. Basic physics. Your nemesis.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.
Which means the artificial horizon in my plane (and everyone elses) would show me in a constant climb. Hasn’t happened.

Q: "Doesn't this mean we'd be traveling faster than the speed of light, which is impossible?"

A: The equations of Special Relativity prevent an object from accelerating to the speed of light.  Due to this restriction, these equations prove that an object can accelerate at a constant rate forever, and never reach the speed of light.  For an in depth explanation:  Click here.
Special relativity means if you reach the speed of light, you require all the energy in the universe to travel. It doesn’t stop you from getting to that speed. Have you actually read this theory?

Q: "If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?"
A: You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped. The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space.
By that reasoning, if I jump up now I’ll have the entire planet slam into me at a great rate of knots. Better warn the high jump team.

Q: "If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?"
A1: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would eventually happen, after a billion years maybe. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field.  What we know as 'gravity' is provided by the acceleration of the earth.
FE assumes. It has no proof, it has no evidence, it has a need, so it invents. Remember phlogiston?

A2: There is a counter-mass which pulls the Earth back into a disc shape.
What it is, where is it, blah blah blah.

Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"
A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull.
Gravity doesn’t vary with altitude. You can leave the earths gravity well, but the earth has a gravitational effect on everything in the universe. Gravity’s strength varies with distance.
How do other planetary get away with a ‘slight’ gravitational pull? They’re massive!


Q:  Follow-up to previous question:  How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?

A:  This argument is a non sequitur.  You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats.  The Earth is not a star or the moon.  It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.
So glo-sticks cannot produce light because they’re not light bulbs. Oh my god, it’s the glo-stick conspiracy!


Geography

Q: Do you have a map?

A: See this one, created by one of our members.  There is also this map attributed to a person named Wilbur Voliva, and another by Heinrich Scherer.
Also, there is Cosmas Indicopleustes' world picture, 6 th century in the Christian Topography.
How can there be not one single definitive map of a flat earth after how ever many years? Not one whistle-blower? Not one leak? Not one Brave Man Alone?

Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?"
A: There is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south.
So if the earth is accelerating upwards, why isn’t the water pushed out sideways? If the earth is spinning, why isn’t the water flung off into space?



Q: "How does global warming affect the ice wall?"
A1: The Ice Wall is really a mountain range.  It just happens to be covered in ice and snow.
Then don’t call it an ice wall.

A2: Global Warming doesn't happen. It and its counter-theory (Global Cooling) are effects that cancel each other out. Remember, these "greenhouse gasses" can reflect heat back out into space as well as keep it on Earth. Yes, there are recorded rises in temperature, but the only records we have go back, at most, around 150 years. This is very likely an occurrence that happens every [x>150] years, that's happened before (perhaps many times), and that the Earth has thus survived before.
Very likely? A blue car drove past me at 11.01. Therefore it is very likely a blue car will always drive past me at 11.01 Control samples, double-blinds, peer review, do you even know what research is? Prove your hypothesis. Ice core samples, atmospheric gas analysis. Ever heard of insolation?


Q: "What about tides?"

A: The tides exist due to a slight see-saw effect on the earth. As it goes back and forth, the water rushes to the side that is lower. Note, this is a very slight wobble. Remember, these wobbles are created by very minor earthquakes. They keep the tides in check. Notice that large earthquakes result in large tides or "tsunami".
So why doesn’t the East Coast have a drowning high tide, while the West Coast suddenly gets loooooong beaches? Earthquakes are very localised, how do they cause the entire disc to tilt?

Q : "Why is the North pole colder than the equator?"
A: The sun circles over the equator, thus the poles don't receive the same intensity of light.
You know, that could actually be supportive evidence.
One for you.


Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds its way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard
Which is almost what really happens in real life in the real world! Are we finding common ground?...

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.
Directly overhead who? Looks like we’re nowhere close after all.

Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses"

(Possible A) The moon isn't a spotlight; it glows with light from the sun, reflected off the Earth. Different parts of the Earth are more reflective than others (the seas, the polar cap, the ice wall, for example). Sometimes, the position of the sun (which is a spotlight) means that only very low-reflective or non-reflective parts of the Earth's surface are illuminated, so the moon is abnormally dark. This could potentially explain lunar phases as well.
Wait, the moon produced a cold light a paragraph ago. Now it reflects, but then it’s abnormally dark. I’d like to respond, but, you’ve lost me.

Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?"

A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times)
All of them? Man, this conspiracy is huge! Every pilot, stewardess, air traffic controller, load controller, air-side crewman, ground side crewman, check-in clerk, every passenger that has ever been on a flight, every member of every military, every shipping captain, every shipping magnate, every recreational sailor, every government, all of their staff, every scientist, every satellite technician, every subscriber to satellite tv, every space agency, every associated agency, the media, electronic equipment manufacturers, every teacher, university lecturer, museum curator, Antarctic adventurer (no! Not Shackleton!), every Antarctic research scientist and all the people who live in Greenland and New Zealand (that’d be right). Not one whistleblower? Not one leak? Not one Brave Man Alone?

Q: "How can a compass work on a Flat Earth?"

A: The magnetic field is generated in the same fashion as with the RE.  Thus, the magnetic south pole is near the geographic north pole, just like on the RE.  The magnetic north pole is on the underside of the Earth.  The Ice Wall is not the south pole, but acts as it, as it is the furthest from the center of the earth that you can follow the magnetic field.  The field is vertical in this area, accounting for the aurora australis.
The North and South pole are nowhere near eachother. You could say they’re… Polar Opposites! Guffaw!
If the North Pole is on the underside, why doesn’t my compass point straight down?


Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?"
A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle.
We have evidence. Or were the Chinese fleets, the Dutch Fleets, the Spanish fleets and the English fleets in on it? No! Not Columbus! Wait a second, you’re American? YOU DON”T EXIST! You’re country couldn’t have been found!




Q: If you go directly south won’t you eventually fall off the edge of the Earth?
A: Yes, you will. In order to use this fact as proof you need to record a video of someone flying directly south around the world without falling off the edge. Furthermore you need to prove that your navigational equipment allows you to travel directly south without deviating.
You won’t fall off, because it you go straight down for North, then South is…. straight…. up…….. What about Steve Fossett, Richard Branson, they’ve been around the world non-stop. Oh but they’re Government agents, aren’t they? No!, Not Branson!

Q: How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise?

You're mistaken.  On a round Earth, the Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day; fewer as you get closer to the equator.  The water in your toilet/sink/bathtub/funnel spins much faster than that (probably at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day) so the additional/lost rotation from the Coriolis effect wouldn't be noticed
Probably? Not good enough. Get out there and measure the RPM. Don’t forget, Coriolis effect is caused by spinning. And no-one’s been flung off yet. Plus you’re only talking about speed here, the question was about direction. Answer the question asked. Ain’t you never been in no debate club?

As the people proposing this *theory* it’s up to you to prove it absolutely.
If you want to use the Scientic Method, and I doubt that, then we can say whatever we like to pick at your arguments, and you have to counter every single one of them. Not the other way around. We’re giving you peer review, which I think is as close as you’ll ever come to scientific legitimacy. I don’t want to take your God away, the Pope has long agreed the Earth is round (sixth century Christian maps! According to those thar be Serpents where I’m typing this!) and after meeting both Einstein and Hawking, the Pope has agreed in the big bang. So your religion is no help. Try charity work if you want to feel big and important, it’s actually productive, and you’ll be let in on the biggest secret of all. You’re not half as important as you think you are.



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divito the truthist

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 04:09:30 PM »
We know they need a rewrite, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
Quote from: Fortuna
objectively good

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 04:09:46 PM »
Boooring
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE
If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
Quote from: Raa
there is a difference between touching a muff and putting your hand into it isn't there?

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The Terror

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 04:17:56 PM »
I assumed the person who wrote the FAQ was going to get shot

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fshy94

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2008, 04:20:11 PM »
Not really necessary. Apart from paying the hosting bill(which could have been set to automatic), he's as good as. He never shows up...maybe Skank got to him...:D
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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The Terror

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 04:21:11 PM »
Gayer is the crack shot.


Really.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 04:26:46 PM »
It's true, I am
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE
If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
Quote from: Raa
there is a difference between touching a muff and putting your hand into it isn't there?

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TheEngineer

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 05:23:00 PM »
Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them.  The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.
Oh dear Lord yes, this version’s flawed. Planes do crash. And re-check your principals of lift, I think you’ll find it’s more to do with air than acceleration, y’know wing camber causing pressure differences, higher pressure moving to lower. Basic physics. Your nemesis.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.
Which means the artificial horizon in my plane (and everyone elses) would show me in a constant climb. Hasn’t happened.
Your reasonings were pure comedic gold.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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TheEngineer

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 05:24:27 PM »
Q: "If the world was really flat, what would happen if you jump off the disc's edge?"
A: You would enter an inertial reference frame, moving at a constant velocity in the direction the Earth was moving before you jumped. The Earth would continue accelerating upwards past you at a rate of 1g, so it would appear to you that you were falling into space.
By that reasoning, if I jump up now I’ll have the entire planet slam into me at a great rate of knots. Better warn the high jump team.
That one is even better.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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shmaller

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 06:17:07 PM »
A: (Presumed answer: The airline pilots are misled by their GPS, or are deliberately conspiring to make it appear that the flights take different times)
All of them? Man, this conspiracy is huge! Every pilot, stewardess, air traffic controller, load controller, air-side crewman, ground side crewman, check-in clerk, every passenger that has ever been on a flight, every member of every military, every shipping captain, every shipping magnate, every recreational sailor, every government, all of their staff, every scientist, every satellite technician, every subscriber to satellite tv, every space agency, every associated agency, the media, electronic equipment manufacturers, every teacher, university lecturer, museum curator, Antarctic adventurer (no! Not Shackleton!), every Antarctic research scientist and all the people who live in Greenland and New Zealand (that’d be right). Not one whistleblower? Not one leak? Not one Brave Man Alone?
Oh my god, I was dying when I read this. It's hysterical how big their "conspiracy" gets once it's all boiled down.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Pilots purposelessly use them to faster reach a destination.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The originals are allegedly held in NASA's special specially built multi-million dollar vacuum storage chamber.

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shmaller

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 06:18:29 PM »
Wait...oh noes! I'm part of the conspiracy! I've been in an airplane before! Several times!
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Pilots purposelessly use them to faster reach a destination.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The originals are allegedly held in NASA's special specially built multi-million dollar vacuum storage chamber.

Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 03:13:16 PM »
Lol, no one has even tried to argue with that. Looks like RE wins, again, for like the 854th time.
The Earth is round. Get the hell over it.
Dude, look at this!!! Seriously!!!
And this too!!!

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TheEngineer

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2008, 03:52:20 PM »
My replies were in hopes of starting a discussion, as what I pointed out is flawed reasoning on the OP's part. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2008, 04:02:36 PM »
Well done this man,

I'd also like an answer why water doesnt all goto the outside perimeter or fall off

why GPS's dont need a satellite and why the find no signal when im in a tunnel?
what, do they have a light sensor thing that turns them off when it cant see sunlight?

and even if the sun just goes really far away and not behind us, we'd be able to see it somewhere

this site is as much fun as debating creationists :)

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Midnight

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Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2008, 04:27:02 PM »
My responses in bold...

Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"
A: It's a conspiracy
Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"
A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.
If every government is part of the conspiracy, who benefits? Why go to all this trouble?

No one benefits, and thus they will ignore this point utterly.


Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"
A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.
What rubbish, weather balloons launched from Tasmania or Greenland (or Caltech or MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, RMIT Uni. of Melb.) will quite happily do it for you.

But they then have the fall-back of "they are in on the conspiracy". The argument presented in the FAQ is airtight, because no one can prove or disprove it. Basically it presents a hypothesis that can neither be confirmed nor denied. In the Delphi training manual, this equals - agitator.


Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"
A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
The moon landing hoax has been so thoroughly debunked this question is lost in irrelevance.

Links please.



PLEASE NOTE This means that pictures confirming the roundness or flatness of the Earth DO NOT IN THEMSELVES CONSTITUTE VALID PROOF.
Because of your hand-waving.

Denial is more powerful than the atomic bomb. :-*


Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?"
A: The motive is unknown although it is probably money
Money for who, from who? Paranoia is not proof

I concur.


Q: "If you're not sure about the motive, why do you say there is a conspiracy?"
A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.
My girlfriend got pregnant, since we’ve never had sex, it must be a virgin birth. Hallelujah, the messiah comes again! Or she’s cheating on me. Reducto ad absurdum.

Circular reasoning on their part. In this case, intentionally. Again, the debate cannot move forward or back by design.



Q: "The government could not pull off the conspiracy successfully"
A: Actually, they could.
How? What is needed, who is involved, etc etc.
Q: "How are the world governments organized enough to carry out this conspiracy?"
A: They only appear to be disorganized to make the conspiracy seem implausible.
Oh man that’s not worth a rational answer.

Apparently they pulled it off just enough in the minds of 5 people who have a domain.



Q: Why hasn’t this site been shut down by the government?
A: Doing so would prove that the government is hiding something.
In the world of the deluded crackpot, this one actually makes sense.

It hasn't been shutdown because it is a part of an actual socio-economic surveillance program, designed to test the demographics of dissenters, free thinkers, disillusioned academics, and the like. In short, it is a petry dish for what is to come next. Echelon was a shareware program.


Q: No way could the government possibly guard the entire Ice Wall!  It would take too many men!  Millions of men!
A: Not really.  You could do it with a few hundred and some basic equipment.
Where are they stationed, what equipment would they need? Almost 25000 miles to be watched by a few hundred? Do have any idea how many troops there are stationed on the border between North and South Korea? And they have people crossing the border all the time! Let’s call it 200 men, which gives them each 1500 miles to patrol. They’d want to be fit!
What about scientific research stations, the commercial runway that was just opened? Australian environment minister Peter Garret was flown to Antarctica along with a few hundred scientists, journalists and VIPs. Although they’re all ‘in on it’ I guess.

The Ice Wall is a debate device used to master affect in NOT advancing the debate beyond the same tired responses. Since it is such a remote location on the planet, no explanation proffered by ANYONE has any merit to those who refuse to arrive there themselves, and so the tailspin continues, unabated.


Q: Why is NASA’s space shuttle runway curved?
A: It was specially constructed by NASA to be so. After all NASA are at the heart of the conspiracy.
No, it’s the governments. All of them. Don’t contradict yourself now! NASA built a straight runway. It’s curved because it’s long.

Well said. Expect to be ignored on this one.




The Earth in space



Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"
A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles
Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"
A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.
How do these work? Actual physical proof. Day and night could not possibly exist in your ‘model’. Think harder.

They did, it's a spotlight according to the resident Android - Tom. Unfortunately, this is the same device used in the ice wall. No concrete finalization will ever be seen on this part of the argument. This is, again, by design.


In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards.
No they’re not. We live in an expanding (typo correction[b/]) universe. 

But you will never convince them of this, without the proof you demand of them on their own side. Again, this is unanswerable and showcases a total LACK of final rebuttal. Design, again.


The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles)
Then why do they get bigger when seen through a telescope. Earth based telescopes? I.R, Radio frequency, X-Ray, CBR…….

You nailed it. Again though, you are beating your head against a pre-written script answer that will not result in moving forward on the board. Design, again.


Q: "Please explain sunrises/sunsets."

A: It's a perspective effect.  Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it disappears because everything gets smaller and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.
But the sun doesn’t get smaller as it sets. It goes down. Down, like it would if the earth were round. Light doesn’t bend y’know. It travels in perfectly straight paths. The only thing capable of affecting its travel is gravity. Got a black hole in there somewhere?

Light DOES bend, in certain situations. But they won't go there. Design.


Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?"
A: The Earth is not one of the other planets.  The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways.
Explain how.

Good luck.


Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"
A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth.  The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites.
What’s a pseudolite? If it hangs above the earth, then it’s a satellite. And how come I lose reception when I take my GPS indoors? I still get phone coverage.

You are a conspiracy shill, according to the designers of the unwinnable debate.


Q: "What's underneath the Earth?" aka "What's on the bottom?" aka "What's on the other side?"
A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.
Yeah I’ve read Terry Pratchett too.

If people would desist in actually responding to the asshats who run things here, and read this entire site (pertaining to the actual purpose of it), Terry Pratchet would, in fact, have a civil lawsuit case so airtight that it would make the Baby Jesus himself laugh out loud. In point of brutal fact, this entire site is like a parody of Discworld, and you all are the protagonists. Unfortunately, the last page ever spreads out.


Q: "What about gravity?"
A: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s^2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.
Well it can’t be because you’ve not included the mass of the earth. When you include that we’d have more than one G. Or one G wouldn’t be one G as we know it, it’d be one G as it would be in….. ooh I’m starting to sound like you…..
The earths gravity is caused by the earths mass. If the earth had no gravity it would have no mass. That would be interesting.

For some of the robots, it is indeed interesting.


Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them.  The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.
Oh dear Lord yes, this version’s flawed. Planes do crash. And re-check your principals of lift, I think you’ll find it’s more to do with air than acceleration, y’know wind chamber (typo fixed for sense[b/])causing pressure differences, higher pressure moving to lower. Basic physics. Your nemesis.

Physics is part of the conspiracy, according to the Androids.
--------------------------------------------
As the people proposing this *theory* it’s up to you to prove it absolutely.
If you want to use the Scientic Method, and I doubt that, then we can say whatever we like to pick at your arguments, and you have to counter every single one of them. Not the other way around. We’re giving you peer review, which I think is as close as you’ll ever come to scientific legitimacy. I don’t want to take your God away, the Pope has long agreed the Earth is round (sixth century Christian maps! According to those thar be Serpents where I’m typing this!) and after meeting both Einstein and Hawking, the Pope has agreed in the big bang. So your religion is no help. Try charity work if you want to feel big and important, it’s actually productive, and you’ll be let in on the biggest secret of all. You’re not half as important as you think you are.


As for the rest of the Novella, I believe your intent was noble, and your aim was true, but you are, again, dealing with a machine of Orwellian proportions. The Androids cannot be swayed. The Androids cannot be reasoned with. The Androids will ignore, utterly, any one single post, or person, who outright backs them into a total, quantifiable corner with an unanswerwable question. The dogmatic fall-back of "conspiracy" is simply to make your head explode until you toss your hands up, run away, or send a buddy in here with the noble ambition you just expressed, with "But..."

You cannot win. They cannot win. This is by design. Welcome to Sociological Experiment 1138.


Another victory for FE/RE Apathy! :D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 04:39:46 PM by Midnight »
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

?

The Terror

  • 1776
  • Flat Earth Propane Tank
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2008, 05:03:24 PM »
The flat earth believers want to preserve the possibility of the earth being flat rather than discover if it is flat or not. That's why they devote all their efforts into discrediting round earth evidence rather than finding flat earth evidence. It's a faith rather than a science.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »
Well done this man,
Too bad most of his reasoning was flawed.

Quote
I'd also like an answer why water doesnt all goto the outside perimeter
Why would it?

Quote
why GPS's dont need a satellite and why the find no signal when im in a tunnel?
Uh, because you don't have line of sight with a transmitter.

Quote
what, do they have a light sensor thing that turns them off when it cant see sunlight?
Yours only works during the day?  Is it solar powered?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2008, 05:36:45 PM »
"Too bad most of his reasoning was flawed."
too bad non of yours does either
Government conspiracies?  doctored photos? lololol

where's the transmitting tower for the GPS when im in the middle of the desert?

what did i see when the space station orbited us and the news told us to go outside at a certain time to have a look?
and sure enough I did see it, looked even better through a telescope at matter of fact.  what am i looking at if not something actually in space?

you all just say that the evidence here is flawed yet show no proof yourself,  he's just gone through your FAQ and the responces from FE'er are lackluster at best.  Responces that just laugh off, cry conspiritor, or just say no are not enough

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2008, 05:48:17 PM »
Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them.  The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.
Oh dear Lord yes, this version’s flawed. Planes do crash. And re-check your principals of lift, I think you’ll find it’s more to do with air than acceleration, y’know wing camber causing pressure differences, higher pressure moving to lower. Basic physics. Your nemesis.

The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.
Which means the artificial horizon in my plane (and everyone elses) would show me in a constant climb. Hasn’t happened.

"Too bad most of his reasoning was flawed."
too bad non of yours does either

Mine is in the FAQ.  Care to show me how my reasoning is wrong on these issues?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2008, 05:13:49 AM »
Wow, someone who actually went to the trouble of pointing out the flaws in the FAQ. You have a point, it is full of not so much holes as gaping chasms. They should fix it, all it does is confuse newcomers and provide a quick-fix answer to questions, at least until they realise the answer is not in the faq.
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

*

Midnight

  • 7671
  • RE/FE Apathetic.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 05:21:31 AM »
My responses in bold...

Q: "Why do the all the world Governments say the Earth is round?"
A: It's a conspiracy
Q: "What about NASA? Don't they have photos to prove that the Earth is round?"
A: NASA is part of the conspiracy too. The photos are faked.
If every government is part of the conspiracy, who benefits? Why go to all this trouble?

No one benefits, and thus they will ignore this point utterly.


Q: "Why has no-one taken a photo of the Earth that proves it is flat?"
A: The government prevents people from getting close enough to the Ice Wall to take a picture.
What rubbish, weather balloons launched from Tasmania or Greenland (or Caltech or MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, RMIT Uni. of Melb.) will quite happily do it for you.

But they then have the fall-back of "they are in on the conspiracy". The argument presented in the FAQ is airtight, because no one can prove or disprove it. Basically it presents a hypothesis that can neither be confirmed nor denied. In the Delphi training manual, this equals - agitator.


Q: "How did NASA create these images with the computer technology available at the time?"
A: Since NASA did not send rockets into space, they instead spent the money on developing advanced computers and imaging software instead
The moon landing hoax has been so thoroughly debunked this question is lost in irrelevance.

Links please.



PLEASE NOTE This means that pictures confirming the roundness or flatness of the Earth DO NOT IN THEMSELVES CONSTITUTE VALID PROOF.
Because of your hand-waving.

Denial is more powerful than the atomic bomb. :-*


Q: "What is the motive behind this conspiracy?"
A: The motive is unknown although it is probably money
Money for who, from who? Paranoia is not proof

I concur.


Q: "If you're not sure about the motive, why do you say there is a conspiracy?"
A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.
My girlfriend got pregnant, since we’ve never had sex, it must be a virgin birth. Hallelujah, the messiah comes again! Or she’s cheating on me. Reducto ad absurdum.

Circular reasoning on their part. In this case, intentionally. Again, the debate cannot move forward or back by design.



Q: "The government could not pull off the conspiracy successfully"
A: Actually, they could.
How? What is needed, who is involved, etc etc.
Q: "How are the world governments organized enough to carry out this conspiracy?"
A: They only appear to be disorganized to make the conspiracy seem implausible.
Oh man that’s not worth a rational answer.

Apparently they pulled it off just enough in the minds of 5 people who have a domain.



Q: Why hasn’t this site been shut down by the government?
A: Doing so would prove that the government is hiding something.
In the world of the deluded crackpot, this one actually makes sense.

It hasn't been shutdown because it is a part of an actual socio-economic surveillance program, designed to test the demographics of dissenters, free thinkers, disillusioned academics, and the like. In short, it is a petry dish for what is to come next. Echelon was a shareware program.


Q: No way could the government possibly guard the entire Ice Wall!  It would take too many men!  Millions of men!
A: Not really.  You could do it with a few hundred and some basic equipment.
Where are they stationed, what equipment would they need? Almost 25000 miles to be watched by a few hundred? Do have any idea how many troops there are stationed on the border between North and South Korea? And they have people crossing the border all the time! Let’s call it 200 men, which gives them each 1500 miles to patrol. They’d want to be fit!
What about scientific research stations, the commercial runway that was just opened? Australian environment minister Peter Garret was flown to Antarctica along with a few hundred scientists, journalists and VIPs. Although they’re all ‘in on it’ I guess.

The Ice Wall is a debate device used to master affect in NOT advancing the debate beyond the same tired responses. Since it is such a remote location on the planet, no explanation proffered by ANYONE has any merit to those who refuse to arrive there themselves, and so the tailspin continues, unabated.


Q: Why is NASA’s space shuttle runway curved?
A: It was specially constructed by NASA to be so. After all NASA are at the heart of the conspiracy.
No, it’s the governments. All of them. Don’t contradict yourself now! NASA built a straight runway. It’s curved because it’s long.

Well said. Expect to be ignored on this one.




The Earth in space



Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"
A: "Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles
Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"
A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.
How do these work? Actual physical proof. Day and night could not possibly exist in your ‘model’. Think harder.

They did, it's a spotlight according to the resident Android - Tom. Unfortunately, this is the same device used in the ice wall. No concrete finalization will ever be seen on this part of the argument. This is, again, by design.


In the "accelerating upwards" model, the stars, sun and moon are also accelerating upwards.
No they’re not. We live in an expanding (typo correction[b/]) universe. 

But you will never convince them of this, without the proof you demand of them on their own side. Again, this is unanswerable and showcases a total LACK of final rebuttal. Design, again.


The stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston. (3100 miles)
Then why do they get bigger when seen through a telescope. Earth based telescopes? I.R, Radio frequency, X-Ray, CBR…….

You nailed it. Again though, you are beating your head against a pre-written script answer that will not result in moving forward on the board. Design, again.


Q: "Please explain sunrises/sunsets."

A: It's a perspective effect.  Really, the sun is just getting farther away; it looks like it disappears because everything gets smaller and eventually disappears as it gets farther away.
But the sun doesn’t get smaller as it sets. It goes down. Down, like it would if the earth were round. Light doesn’t bend y’know. It travels in perfectly straight paths. The only thing capable of affecting its travel is gravity. Got a black hole in there somewhere?

Light DOES bend, in certain situations. But they won't go there. Design.


Q: "Why are other celestial bodies round but not the Earth?"
A: The Earth is not one of the other planets.  The Earth is special and unlike the other bodies in numerous ways.
Explain how.

Good luck.


Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"
A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites can't orbit the Earth.  The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites.
What’s a pseudolite? If it hangs above the earth, then it’s a satellite. And how come I lose reception when I take my GPS indoors? I still get phone coverage.

You are a conspiracy shill, according to the designers of the unwinnable debate.


Q: "What's underneath the Earth?" aka "What's on the bottom?" aka "What's on the other side?"
A: This is unknown. Some believe it to be just rocks, others believe the Earth rests on the back of four elephants and a turtle.
Yeah I’ve read Terry Pratchett too.

If people would desist in actually responding to the asshats who run things here, and read this entire site (pertaining to the actual purpose of it), Terry Pratchet would, in fact, have a civil lawsuit case so airtight that it would make the Baby Jesus himself laugh out loud. In point of brutal fact, this entire site is like a parody of Discworld, and you all are the protagonists. Unfortunately, the last page ever spreads out.


Q: "What about gravity?"
A: The Earth is accelerating upwards at 1g (9.8m/s^2) along with every star, sun and moon in the universe. This produces the same effect as gravity.
Well it can’t be because you’ve not included the mass of the earth. When you include that we’d have more than one G. Or one G wouldn’t be one G as we know it, it’d be one G as it would be in….. ooh I’m starting to sound like you…..
The earths gravity is caused by the earths mass. If the earth had no gravity it would have no mass. That would be interesting.

For some of the robots, it is indeed interesting.


Q: "Isn't this version of gravity flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. By the same argument, we could ask why planes/helicopters/paragliders don't crash into the Earth as they accelerate down towards them.  The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce lift, which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, causes them to remain at a constant altitude.
Oh dear Lord yes, this version’s flawed. Planes do crash. And re-check your principals of lift, I think you’ll find it’s more to do with air than acceleration, y’know wind chamber (typo fixed for sense[b/])causing pressure differences, higher pressure moving to lower. Basic physics. Your nemesis.

Physics is part of the conspiracy, according to the Androids.
--------------------------------------------
As the people proposing this *theory* it’s up to you to prove it absolutely.
If you want to use the Scientic Method, and I doubt that, then we can say whatever we like to pick at your arguments, and you have to counter every single one of them. Not the other way around. We’re giving you peer review, which I think is as close as you’ll ever come to scientific legitimacy. I don’t want to take your God away, the Pope has long agreed the Earth is round (sixth century Christian maps! According to those thar be Serpents where I’m typing this!) and after meeting both Einstein and Hawking, the Pope has agreed in the big bang. So your religion is no help. Try charity work if you want to feel big and important, it’s actually productive, and you’ll be let in on the biggest secret of all. You’re not half as important as you think you are.


As for the rest of the Novella, I believe your intent was noble, and your aim was true, but you are, again, dealing with a machine of Orwellian proportions. The Androids cannot be swayed. The Androids cannot be reasoned with. The Androids will ignore, utterly, any one single post, or person, who outright backs them into a total, quantifiable corner with an unanswerwable question. The dogmatic fall-back of "conspiracy" is simply to make your head explode until you toss your hands up, run away, or send a buddy in here with the noble ambition you just expressed, with "But..."

You cannot win. They cannot win. This is by design. Welcome to Sociological Experiment 1138.


Another victory for FE/RE Apathy! :D
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 05:28:20 AM »
I'd like to re-point out the valid and correct point I made as to why the explanation of seasons in FE would not work, and if it did why it would produce observed phenomena which we do not see.  There was no official response, no defense of the theory, no attempt to patch up the flaw, instead, Tom Bishop made a statement which in fact supports RE and contradicts FE, and then the forum was locked.
Therefore, the section regarding the seasons is entirely useless and needs replacing with a better explanation.
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

*

Midnight

  • 7671
  • RE/FE Apathetic.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 02:33:53 PM »
I'd like to re-point out the valid and correct point I made as to why the explanation of seasons in FE would not work, and if it did why it would produce observed phenomena which we do not see.  There was no official response, no defense of the theory, no attempt to patch up the flaw, instead, Tom Bishop made a statement which in fact supports RE and contradicts FE, and then the forum was locked.
Therefore, the section regarding the seasons is entirely useless and needs replacing with a better explanation.

Which they will not allow because it breaks the stalemate.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

*

Midnight

  • 7671
  • RE/FE Apathetic.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 04:05:08 AM »
Bumped for those that would ignore it and hide it beneath the rug.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

?

Jim

  • 255
  • What year did Jesus think it was?
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2008, 04:44:39 AM »
All the valid points will be ignored.  It's hard to believe anyone could still think the earth is flat after turning a blind eye to indisputable evidence over and over.  I think it's become more of a stubborn thing, "I refuse to be proved wrong because I would then look very, very silly, possibly even more silly than I already look."

?

Conspiracy Mastermind

  • 1836
  • There is no conspiracy...
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2008, 05:14:10 AM »
Well, that's the impresion people usually get within the first five minutes of seeing this site. The fact I pointed out a serious flaw and all they did was stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la I'm not listening!" just goes to show how silly and daft FET really is.
Quote from: Tomcooper84
there is no optical light, there is just light and theres no other type of light unless you start talkling about energy saving lightbulbs compared to other types of light bulbs
ENaG: Evidence Not a Guarantee.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2008, 07:45:11 AM »
I would love for any of you to defend the statements that I pointed out were wrong.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Loard Z

  • 4680
  • Insert witty intellectual phrase here...
Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2008, 08:00:58 AM »
I think it's quite simple.

The earth behaves exactly as RE predicts. Except it's flat. Governments and space agencies know it's flat, but don't tell anyone.

The End.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
See My Greatness

Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2008, 09:33:35 AM »
Found proof of your ice wall.

Facepalm to your theories!

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eric bloedow

Re: FAQ shooting
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2008, 09:56:34 AM »
"The earth behaves exactly as RE predicts. Except it's flat."

now that has to be the stupidest thing i've read here yet!

1) the FE does not rotate. so weather patterns, especially hurricanes, would behave totally differently.
2) the 2 models are totally different shapes, so navigating airplanes and ships anywhere south of the equator would be totally different! there have been many threads about this!
3) gravity at high altitudes would behave differently, making all aircraft and satellites behave differently.

not to mention the movements of the sun and moon, etc.