Why isn't UA weakening

  • 56 Replies
  • 11727 Views
?

11cookeaw1

Why isn't UA weakening
« on: October 11, 2013, 09:15:43 PM »
Shouldn't UA bee orders of magnitude weaker then it used to be.
After all 1. We'd be getting further and further from the source so the force from it would be weaker. Using the formula for relativistic time dilation we get the earth would be roughly 10^1000000000 light years away and doubling in distance every 16 months. By the inverse square rule the strength of UA should half every 8 months from that effect alone.
There's also the effective redshift. As the earth gets faster and faster, less and less energy from the UA would hit the earth.

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
Shouldn't UA bee orders of magnitude weaker then it used to be.
After all 1. We'd be getting further and further from the source so the force from it would be weaker. Using the formula for relativistic time dilation we get the earth would be roughly 10^1000000000 light years away and doubling in distance every 16 months. By the inverse square rule the strength of UA should half every 8 months from that effect alone.
There's also the effective redshift. As the earth gets faster and faster, less and less energy from the UA would hit the earth.

I believe the current argument is that UA does not obey an inverse distance (of some magnitude) law. That is, its effect is not from a "source" but rather is a property of space. Hence, it has a value everywhere in space. Thus, the Earth never moves away from it. Make sense? I mean, of course it doesn't make perfect sense, because we cannot prove this yet. But do you understand my explanation? Things that act like this are called scalar fields. This scalar field of UA, would not have a dependence on location (unlike other scalar fields you may find if you wikipedia the term).

?

Almostaphysicsmajor

  • 66
  • I'm a scientist! Sort of...
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 10:50:03 PM »
Shouldn't UA bee orders of magnitude weaker then it used to be.
After all 1. We'd be getting further and further from the source so the force from it would be weaker. Using the formula for relativistic time dilation we get the earth would be roughly 10^1000000000 light years away and doubling in distance every 16 months. By the inverse square rule the strength of UA should half every 8 months from that effect alone.
There's also the effective redshift. As the earth gets faster and faster, less and less energy from the UA would hit the earth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the FE model, the UA, or aetheric wind, for a more eloquent term, is a field that is expanding. It is not in the form of electromagnetic radiation, so redshift does not apply because there is no frequency to begin with, it is an expansion of some kind of exotic energy, maybe it is negetive energy that is causing a positive energy surplus to appear elsewhere in the universe.

I am curious to how you used the Lorentz transformation for time dilation to calculate distance, when the relativistic formula for time dilation is as follows:

~Id rather live painfully than die painlessly~

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »
Shouldn't UA bee orders of magnitude weaker then it used to be.
After all 1. We'd be getting further and further from the source so the force from it would be weaker. Using the formula for relativistic time dilation we get the earth would be roughly 10^1000000000 light years away and doubling in distance every 16 months. By the inverse square rule the strength of UA should half every 8 months from that effect alone.
There's also the effective redshift. As the earth gets faster and faster, less and less energy from the UA would hit the earth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the FE model, the UA, or aetheric wind, for a more eloquent term, is a field that is expanding. It is not in the form of electromagnetic radiation, so redshift does not apply because there is no frequency to begin with, it is an expansion of some kind of exotic energy, maybe it is negetive energy that is causing a positive energy surplus to appear elsewhere in the universe.

I am curious to how you used the Lorentz transformation for time dilation to calculate distance, when the relativistic formula for time dilation is as follows:



Oh dear, is this true? Does FET theory believe in an expanding UA field? Can another FE'er comment on this??

?

Almostaphysicsmajor

  • 66
  • I'm a scientist! Sort of...
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 11:41:45 PM »
Shouldn't UA bee orders of magnitude weaker then it used to be.
After all 1. We'd be getting further and further from the source so the force from it would be weaker. Using the formula for relativistic time dilation we get the earth would be roughly 10^1000000000 light years away and doubling in distance every 16 months. By the inverse square rule the strength of UA should half every 8 months from that effect alone.
There's also the effective redshift. As the earth gets faster and faster, less and less energy from the UA would hit the earth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the FE model, the UA, or aetheric wind, for a more eloquent term, is a field that is expanding. It is not in the form of electromagnetic radiation, so redshift does not apply because there is no frequency to begin with, it is an expansion of some kind of exotic energy, maybe it is negetive energy that is causing a positive energy surplus to appear elsewhere in the universe.

I am curious to how you used the Lorentz transformation for time dilation to calculate distance, when the relativistic formula for time dilation is as follows:



Oh dear, is this true? Does FET theory believe in an expanding UA field? Can another FE'er comment on this??

Dude, I don't know... The exact specifications of UA in FET probably aren't as such but it makes sense doesn't it?
~Id rather live painfully than die painlessly~

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 03:02:24 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Pongo

  • Planar Moderator
  • 6758
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 05:17:45 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 05:50:14 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

?

Adolf Hipster

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 07:28:27 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?
Roundy - I remember that gravity is the effect of matter on the fabric of space.  Imagine space was a sheet, and you placed a large marble on it - this impression is gravity. Then place a few small marbles on the sheet - they will roll towards the large marble due to the indent it's making. 
Gravity isn't a force that can be compared to UA. It is simply the effect of matter on the fabric of space.

Pongo - Are you referring to the universe expanding? If so, learn about Dark Energy, which should help answer that point.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 07:33:55 AM by Adolf Hipster »

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2013, 07:30:42 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?
I remember that gravity is the effect of matter on the fabric of space.  Imagine space was a sheet, and you placed a large marble on it - this impression is gravity. Then place a few small marbles on the sheet - they will roll towards the large marble due to the indent it's making. 
Gravity isn't a force that can be compared to UA. It is simply the effect of matter on the fabric of space.

What happened to you? You used to not make any sense and suddenly you do?

?

Adolf Hipster

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2013, 07:35:12 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?
I remember that gravity is the effect of matter on the fabric of space.  Imagine space was a sheet, and you placed a large marble on it - this impression is gravity. Then place a few small marbles on the sheet - they will roll towards the large marble due to the indent it's making. 
Gravity isn't a force that can be compared to UA. It is simply the effect of matter on the fabric of space.

What happened to you? You used to not make any sense and suddenly you do?
Define what you mean. If you mean that I was an FEer, that was faked. I did that to look at it from a different perspective and to learn about FE.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2013, 07:38:07 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?
I remember that gravity is the effect of matter on the fabric of space.  Imagine space was a sheet, and you placed a large marble on it - this impression is gravity. Then place a few small marbles on the sheet - they will roll towards the large marble due to the indent it's making. 
Gravity isn't a force that can be compared to UA. It is simply the effect of matter on the fabric of space.

What happened to you? You used to not make any sense and suddenly you do?
Define what you mean. If you mean that I was an FEer, that was faked. I did that to look at it from a different perspective and to learn about FE.

No, no... you hit the nail on the head. I get it.

*

Pongo

  • Planar Moderator
  • 6758
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2013, 09:10:15 AM »
My point was that round-earthers have no problem believing in the universe expanding ever quicker and when asked the mechanism for this, thy explain it away by creating something called dark energy. They haven't a care to wonder why it never slows down, yet are aghast at the notion of UA not slowing down.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 09:17:11 AM »
My point was that round-earthers have no problem believing in the universe expanding ever quicker and when asked the mechanism for this, thy explain it away by creating something called dark energy. They haven't a care to wonder why it never slows down, yet are aghast at the notion of UA not slowing down.

Oh ok. So a contradiction that applies to things that are on the outskirts of what we experience in our daily lives is equivalent to a phenomenon that happens on the very earth we walk on.

We have a reasonable excuse for not having an idea about what dark energy really is and there are reasonable reasons to consider it's existence. We can't say the same thing for UA.

?

Adolf Hipster

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 09:23:54 AM »
My point was that round-earthers have no problem believing in the universe expanding ever quicker and when asked the mechanism for this, thy explain it away by creating something called dark energy. They haven't a care to wonder why it never slows down, yet are aghast at the notion of UA not slowing down.
Incorrect. We do care why it never slows down, and that is why we attempt to learn about it and understand it. 
Also, I am not necessarily aghast at the notion of the UA not slowing down. If one applied a Dark Energy concept to UA for an FE universe, I see no reason why the UA would slow down.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 09:39:12 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 09:43:16 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 10:09:20 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

I'm sorry, is GR the only model of gravity currently accepted?  Are you sure there's not a contradictory theory that is a part of what we are told is one of the most rigorously proven theories in scientific history?  One that posits the existence of (an apparently unlimited and never weakening supply of) tiny particles causing the force of gravity?

Does any of that ring a bell?  I'm sure being a RE proponent you understand these things better than I do.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

I'm sorry, is GR the only model of gravity currently accepted?  Are you sure there's not a contradictory theory that is a part of what we are told is one of the most rigorously proven theories in scientific history?  One that posits the existence of (an apparently unlimited and never weakening supply of) tiny particles causing the force of gravity?

Does any of that ring a bell?  I'm sure being a RE proponent you understand these things better than I do.

Yes I'm aware of the graviton and upon searching on Google for the phrase "why should we quantize gravity" I find a barrage of articles and pdf's that pretty much give the same general answer... "Because everything else has been quantized."

So that leaves a simple dilemma doesn't it? Either gravity doesn't need to be quantized or if the graviton is found to exist then it's far more peculiar than we thought. Neither turn of events makes gravitation a weak argument for RE. If gravity is what it is said to be in GR then it makes perfect sense and if the graviton is found then it's proven to exist. How is this anything like the UA problem where there is neither a known particle that makes it work nor a working model that can even explain local contradictions?

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 10:19:07 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

I'm sorry, is GR the only model of gravity currently accepted?  Are you sure there's not a contradictory theory that is a part of what we are told is one of the most rigorously proven theories in scientific history?  One that posits the existence of (an apparently unlimited and never weakening supply of) tiny particles causing the force of gravity?

Does any of that ring a bell?  I'm sure being a RE proponent you understand these things better than I do.

Yes I'm aware of the graviton and upon searching on Google for the phrase "why should we quantize gravity" I find a barrage of articles and pdf's that pretty much give the same general answer... "Because everything else has been quantized."

So that leaves a simple dilemma doesn't it? Either gravity doesn't need to be quantized or if the graviton is found to exist then it's far more peculiar than we thought. Neither turn of events makes gravitation a weak argument for RE. If gravity is what it is said to be in GR then it makes perfect sense and if the graviton is found then it's proven to exist. How is this anything like the UA problem where there is neither a known particle that makes it work nor a working model that can even explain local contradictions?

Did you mean to respond to someone else?  I never said gravitation was a weak argument for RE.  I was just pointing out that it never weakens, which makes the argument that UA must weaken rather silly in comparison.  Any other issues you have with UA are irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 10:25:58 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Okay, I think may be able to offer something here. I believe the intended question is: what is the formulation of UA? You see, as you move farther away, the effect of gravity becomes less -- it's strength "decays." But despite an accelerating Earth for many, many years, the UA effect is unchanged. So this begs the question: can we present a model for UA, that has a rigorous formulation, explains what we observe, and is self-consistent.

This is a very natural question to demand of any theory, and we should demand it of our own. In comparison, dark energy already HAS this formulation in Einstein's Field Equations. So if we wish to keep things fair between FET and RET, then we are behind.

Also please be careful about these RET claims you make. The increased rate of expansion of the Universe is a very recent phenomena, and has NOT been going on for "billions" of years. Also, it is erroneous to state that everything in the Universe decays. This is not true. You could construct a specific statement, about entropy, for example, and make a true statement about "decay" in a manner of speaking.

Effectively, if UA is a fundamental force, just as gravity, then it deserves the same formal description that gravity enjoys.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 10:26:35 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

I'm sorry, is GR the only model of gravity currently accepted?  Are you sure there's not a contradictory theory that is a part of what we are told is one of the most rigorously proven theories in scientific history?  One that posits the existence of (an apparently unlimited and never weakening supply of) tiny particles causing the force of gravity?

Does any of that ring a bell?  I'm sure being a RE proponent you understand these things better than I do.

Yes I'm aware of the graviton and upon searching on Google for the phrase "why should we quantize gravity" I find a barrage of articles and pdf's that pretty much give the same general answer... "Because everything else has been quantized."

So that leaves a simple dilemma doesn't it? Either gravity doesn't need to be quantized or if the graviton is found to exist then it's far more peculiar than we thought. Neither turn of events makes gravitation a weak argument for RE. If gravity is what it is said to be in GR then it makes perfect sense and if the graviton is found then it's proven to exist. How is this anything like the UA problem where there is neither a known particle that makes it work nor a working model that can even explain local contradictions?

Did you mean to respond to someone else?  I never said gravitation was a weak argument for RE.  I was just pointing out that it never weakens, which makes the argument that UA must weaken rather silly in comparison.  Any other issues you have with UA are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

On the contrary. You did say that gravity should weaken but you were also rebutting my objection when I said that gravity is not a "weak" argument in the same way that UA is. Weak and weak... two different words. I didn't mean to confuse you.

If the right explanation for gravity is GR then there is no reason for it to weaken. If the right explanation for gravity is the graviton then it is irrelevant that gravity doesn't weaken because we will have discovered the particle responsible for the fact that gravity doesn't decay.

When speaking of UA we can't even talk about any details of this sort. You don't have any data to support the idea, you have no observations... you really have nothing. You have the Equivalence Principle and FET doesn't even use it correctly by omitting the essential phrase "local" from the principle. For developing the idea of UA the equivalence principle is used unoriginally and incorrectly.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 10:34:32 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

And why doesn't the magical force that is pulling everything away from everything else at an accelerating speed weakening?

Ok, both of you. The OP is about 'why UA doesn't weaken'. Why are you attempting to turn the argument around just because your own theories don't make sense?

By the way, reversing the argument doesn't even make sense. The force of gravity is dependent on the amount of mass a body has. In gravitation, there is no reason for gravity to weaken. It's so fallacious to assume that the weakness of UA pointed out in the OP and following comments also apply to gravitation.

In this universe, everything decays.  Yet the force of gravity has remained unchanged since it was discovered.  Why does it not make sense to question that (beyond that it's the accepted dogma, of course)?

UA is a fundamental force of the universe in FET, just as gravity is in RET.  It would be fatuous to the extreme to try to argue that UA must weaken at some point while gravity is allowed to stay at full strength forever.  I'm not "reversing" any argument; I'm using an example from your own theory to show that such a question is nonsensical.

And meanwhile, as Pongo points out, the expansion of the universe continues to expand in RET billions of years after its formation at an accelerating rate.  Duh, why hasn't it started to slow down?  As usual, REers are just being silly, accusing FET of being guilty of traits their own theory shares.

Gravity is not necessarily a fundamental force at all. General Relativity is the currently accepted model of Gravity and in that theory there is no reason for it to weaken over time. Get your facts straight.

I'm sorry, is GR the only model of gravity currently accepted?  Are you sure there's not a contradictory theory that is a part of what we are told is one of the most rigorously proven theories in scientific history?  One that posits the existence of (an apparently unlimited and never weakening supply of) tiny particles causing the force of gravity?

Does any of that ring a bell?  I'm sure being a RE proponent you understand these things better than I do.

Yes I'm aware of the graviton and upon searching on Google for the phrase "why should we quantize gravity" I find a barrage of articles and pdf's that pretty much give the same general answer... "Because everything else has been quantized."

So that leaves a simple dilemma doesn't it? Either gravity doesn't need to be quantized or if the graviton is found to exist then it's far more peculiar than we thought. Neither turn of events makes gravitation a weak argument for RE. If gravity is what it is said to be in GR then it makes perfect sense and if the graviton is found then it's proven to exist. How is this anything like the UA problem where there is neither a known particle that makes it work nor a working model that can even explain local contradictions?

Did you mean to respond to someone else?  I never said gravitation was a weak argument for RE.  I was just pointing out that it never weakens, which makes the argument that UA must weaken rather silly in comparison.  Any other issues you have with UA are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

On the contrary. You did say that gravity should weaken

I hate it when people put words in my mouth.  Quote me saying that "gravity should weaken" in this thread.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2013, 10:35:31 AM »

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2013, 10:45:58 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

Okay... this is almost as embarrassing for me to point this out as it probably will be for you to realize it, but I asked for an example of me saying that gravity should weaken, not asking why it doesn't weaken.  I apologize if I haven't made it as abundantly clear as I thought I have, but that was a rhetorical question.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2013, 11:08:20 AM »
Why doesn't gravity weaken?

Okay... this is almost as embarrassing for me to point this out as it probably will be for you to realize it, but I asked for an example of me saying that gravity should weaken, not asking why it doesn't weaken.  I apologize if I haven't made it as abundantly clear as I thought I have, but that was a rhetorical question.

This does not matter. Basically, we are now arguing about "who said what and when and where." It is ancillary to purpose.

In a sense, you two, gravity DOES weaken, according to RET. In the early Universe, gravity "froze out" from the other forces through symmetry breaking, and it was here that it became very weak. Before this, it was stronger.

Okay, so the petty argument about words in mouths, etc. etc. ad nauseam is unimportant. Gravity does get weaker. Now about UA? Does it get weaker? How is it formulated? Shouldn't we be worried about actually IMPROVING this theory?

Just sayin...its like most FE'ers do not actually care about FET.

?

Almostaphysicsmajor

  • 66
  • I'm a scientist! Sort of...
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2013, 11:45:30 AM »
I've got a point to say here... Gravity is a function of mass and distance, and it does get weaker farther away from it's source and is proportional to mass. It is conservation of energy, something that can NEVER be broken. Lets take two large masses in a closed system in a vacuum. If you add the rest energies, potential energies (from gravity) and kinetic energies over a time interval it is mathematically impossible (not to mention physically) for energy to be lost in a closed system. This results in energy always being conserved, and thus is the reason why gravity doesn't get "weaker". If gravity got weaker, then there would be a drop in potential energy, and the energy would have to go into the kinetic energy of the object or the rest energy of the object. If the object is stationary, the gravitational force getting "weaker" would literally cause the object's potential energy to be converted into mass. See what I am saying here? If you want to disagree, then provide an example where energy is not conserved.  8)

*Note: Mass is not always conserved, but total energy is. Don't make the mistake of confusing the two.
~Id rather live painfully than die painlessly~

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2013, 11:54:06 AM »
Gravity does get weaker. Now about UA? Does it get weaker? How is it formulated? Shouldn't we be worried about actually IMPROVING this theory?

UA gets weaker at exactly the same rate as gravity, as they are two theories describing exactly the same phenomenon.  Of course we should be worrying about improving the theory - we should always be worried about improving the theory - but claiming it is impossible because there is an aspect of it that has yet to be explained is not a constructive way to go about doing that.

Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

th3rm0m3t3r0

  • At least 3 words, please.
  • 4696
  • It's SCIENCE!
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2013, 12:07:20 PM »
Gravity does get weaker. Now about UA? Does it get weaker? How is it formulated? Shouldn't we be worried about actually IMPROVING this theory?

UA gets weaker at exactly the same rate as gravity, as they are two theories describing exactly the same phenomenon.  Of course we should be worrying about improving the theory - we should always be worried about improving the theory - but claiming it is impossible because there is an aspect of it that has yet to be explained is not a constructive way to go about doing that.

Even though they're not.
Gravitation differentiates as you increase or decrease distance from the center of Earth's (or any body's,) mass.
This would be impossible in UA.


I don't profess to be correct.
Quote from: sceptimatic
I am correct.

?

rottingroom

  • 4785
  • Around the world.
Re: Why isn't UA weakening
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2013, 12:11:14 PM »
I just had a thought about dark energy and I didn't know where to put it but here goes anyway.

This video explains gravity with relativity and at the 1:15 mark it shows how if the sun were to suddenly disappear then an enormous gravitational wave would shove the earth out of orbit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pwh4wvXWRuA#t=91

Couldn't it be possible that a massive gravitational wave like that of the big bang would cause what we refer to as dark energy? The enormous mass from the singularity causes the universe to expand but the sudden absence of that center of mass caused an enormous trailing gravitational wave that accelerates the universe's expansion.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 12:14:29 PM by rottingroom »