Awesome proof that the world is flat

How do you know what he was thinking? He clearly said nothing about QM contradicting his theory in that quote.

In Einstein's version of the universe there are no probabilities. The universe is fluid and steady state. There is no discrete unit of time - SR says that time can stretch and compress to extreme measures. GR says that space can stretch and compress to extreme measures. Time and space is infinitely indivisible and fluid-like.

QM contradicts his theories because it proposes that the universe is quantized and operates on probabilities. QM says that time can be divided into discrete parts called the Quanta and space can be divided into discrete parts called the Plank. There is a finite chance of a Plank of matter occupying a Quanta of time at any given moment of the day. I.e. There is a very small but finite probability that a tennis ball will pass through a brick wall when you throw the ball towards it.

Einstein is commenting on the nature of probability in QM. When he says that "God does not play dice with the universe" he is saying that his version of the universe is right and QM is wrong because "God is on his side".

A lovely post indeed, wheres the good arguments from 100 proofs?

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How do you know what he was thinking? He clearly said nothing about QM contradicting his theory in that quote.

In Einstein's version of the universe there are no probabilities. The universe is fluid and steady state. There is no discrete unit of time - SR says that time can stretch and compress to extreme measures. GR says that space can stretch and compress to extreme measures. Time and space is infinitely indivisible and fluid-like.

QM contradicts his theories because it proposes that the universe is quantized and operates on probabilities. QM says that time can be divided into discrete parts called the Quanta and space can be divided into discrete parts called the Plank. There is a finite chance of a Plank of matter occupying a Quanta of time at any given moment of the day. I.e. There is a very small but finite probability that a tennis ball will pass through a brick wall when you throw the ball towards it.

Einstein is commenting on the nature of probability in QM. When he says that "God does not play dice with the universe" he is saying that his version of the universe is right and QM is wrong because "God is on his side".

But that's not what he said. What he said is:

"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the 'old one'. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."


He didn't say anything about QM contradicting his theory, or anything about a gos "being on his side". Aren't you a huge proponent of taking things at face value (or trusting only your first-hand experienes). This quote clearly says nothing about what you are talking about.

And I found this nice little tidbit of info. It's you flip-flopping.... AGAIN...

There is experimental evidence for Special Relativity. The experiment where atomic clocks are put on jets is an experimental test of Special Relativity, for instance.

General Relativity, however, remains untested and exists as a hypothesis only.

This is why SR is readily accepted while GR remains in dispute.

You are demoting GR in this post...

Einstein didn't say where the Aether (fabric) of space came from. Only that it was there, and is what allowed him to stretch and compress time for Special Relativity, and is what allowed him to bend space for General Relativity.

Einstein said that empty space was not empty, but there was an underlying fabric called the Aether. He uses the fabric of space time like a rubber mat, to manipulate the physical universe so that calculation met reality.

Time can stretch, compress, or stop all together because of the fabric of space. Bodies can attract, repel, or morph, because of the fabric of space.

The fabric of space time is a hypothesis, and a big one at that, but Einstein tied it tightly together with enough elegance that it seemed to work, which is why his ideas are as famous as they are.

And you are promoting GR here... how can you believe GR one minute, but the next not believe GR? That throws up a red flag for me, showing that you only agree with things when they go your way.

But that's not what he said. What he said is:

"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the 'old one'. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."


He didn't say anything about QM contradicting his theory, or anything about a gos "being on his side". Aren't you a huge proponent of taking things at face value (or trusting only your first-hand experienes). This quote clearly says nothing about what you are talking about.

When Einstein says that QM is wrong because "He does not play dice" he is saying that QM is wrong because that's not how God does business.

Einstein obviously thinks that God does it his way.

And I found this nice little tidbit of info. It's you flip-flopping.... AGAIN...

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 29, 2009, 11:28:01 PM

There is experimental evidence for Special Relativity. The experiment where atomic clocks are put on jets is an experimental test of Special Relativity, for instance.

General Relativity, however, remains untested and exists as a hypothesis only.

This is why SR is readily accepted while GR remains in dispute.

You are demoting GR in this post...

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 21, 2009, 10:39:17 PM

Einstein didn't say where the Aether (fabric) of space came from. Only that it was there, and is what allowed him to stretch and compress time for Special Relativity, and is what allowed him to bend space for General Relativity.

Einstein said that empty space was not empty, but there was an underlying fabric called the Aether. He uses the fabric of space time like a rubber mat, to manipulate the physical universe so that calculation met reality.

Time can stretch, compress, or stop all together because of the fabric of space. Bodies can attract, repel, or morph, because of the fabric of space.

The fabric of space time is a hypothesis, and a big one at that, but Einstein tied it tightly together with enough elegance that it seemed to work, which is why his ideas are as famous as they are.

And you are promoting GR here... how can you believe GR one minute, but the next not believe GR? That throws up a red flag for me, showing that you only agree with things when they go your way.

Einstein's math working on paper isn't proof of GR.

When Einstein says that QM is wrong because "He does not play dice" he is saying that QM is wrong because that's not how God does business.

Einstein obviously thinks that God does it his way.

Where does it say anything about that in the quote? How do you know what Einstein was thinking when he said that? It's not in the quote, so there is no way you would know exactly what he was thinking.

Einstein's math working on paper isn't proof of GR.

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that you relied on it for your own benefit one time, then turned around and denied it for your own benefit another time. That's called a double-standard and you being a hypocrite.

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How do you know what he was thinking? He clearly said nothing about QM contradicting his theory in that quote.

In Einstein's version of the universe there are no probabilities. The universe is fluid and steady state. There is no discrete unit of time - SR says that time can stretch and compress to extreme measures. GR says that space can stretch and compress to extreme measures. Time and space is infinitely indivisible and fluid-like.

QM contradicts his theories because it proposes that the universe is quantized and operates on probabilities. QM says that time can be divided into discrete parts called the Quanta and space can be divided into discrete parts called the Plank. There is a finite chance of a Plank of matter occupying a Quanta of time at any given moment of the day. I.e. There is a very small but finite probability that a tennis ball will pass through a brick wall when you throw the ball towards it.

Einstein is commenting on the nature of probability in QM. When he says that "God does not play dice with the universe" he is saying that his version of the universe is right and QM is wrong because "God is on his side".

He did not base any theories or wite any papers based solely on this view though. This is the point you missed again.

Unlike Rowbotham.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2009, 02:05:08 AM

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How do you know what he was thinking? He clearly said nothing about QM contradicting his theory in that quote.

In Einstein's version of the universe there are no probabilities. The universe is fluid and steady state. There is no discrete unit of time - SR says that time can stretch and compress to extreme measures. GR says that space can stretch and compress to extreme measures. Time and space is infinitely indivisible and fluid-like.

QM contradicts his theories because it proposes that the universe is quantized and operates on probabilities. QM says that time can be divided into discrete parts called the Quanta and space can be divided into discrete parts called the Plank. There is a finite chance of a Plank of matter occupying a Quanta of time at any given moment of the day. I.e. There is a very small but finite probability that a tennis ball will pass through a brick wall when you throw the ball towards it.

Einstein is commenting on the nature of probability in QM. When he says that "God does not play dice with the universe" he is saying that his version of the universe is right and QM is wrong because "God is on his side".

He did not base any theories or wite any papers based solely on this view though. This is the point you missed again.

Unlike Rowbotham.

Isn't it amazing that even when evidence is brought up showing him that he is a hypocrite, he still denies it?

Tom would sell his own grandmother to win an argument.

Einstein's model of space and time is a model, just like the "universal accelerator".  We don't know why space and time bent just as FEers don't know why the earth is accelerating upwards.  The best we can do it a model. within accepted parameters.  That's all we will ever be able to do.

Tom has a massive problem with the words "proof" and "truth", which I believe is rooted in religion.

When Einstein says that QM is wrong because "He does not play dice" he is saying that QM is wrong because that's not how God does business.

Einstein obviously thinks that God does it his way.

Good thing his proof for GR/SR didn't consist soley of that statement as "proof" 50 does with it's lack of evidence and lack of being a proof.

I love the "100 Proofs" list. It's a brilliant way of illustrating the various logical fallacies that lead otherwise intelligent people to believe in nonsense.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2009, 02:32:25 AM

When Einstein says that QM is wrong because "He does not play dice" he is saying that QM is wrong because that's not how God does business.

Einstein obviously thinks that God does it his way.

Good thing his proof for GR/SR didn't consist soley of that statement as "proof" 50 does with it's lack of evidence and lack of being a proof.

Actually his proof against QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".

Aka. the argument of "God is on MY side" being his sole and only proof for why he is correct and why QM is wrong.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 07, 2009, 07:57:06 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2009, 02:32:25 AM

When Einstein says that QM is wrong because "He does not play dice" he is saying that QM is wrong because that's not how God does business.

Einstein obviously thinks that God does it his way.

Good thing his proof for GR/SR didn't consist soley of that statement as "proof" 50 does with it's lack of evidence and lack of being a proof.

Actually his proof against QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".

Aka. the argument of "God is on MY side" being his sole and only proof for why he is correct and why QM is wrong.

No, a statement he made regarding QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".  You seem to be confused as to the concept of proof.

"Proof" 50 relies solely on a religious stance of a religious book, while being completely devoid of content necessary of a proof, so your claim of dismissal of other people's work based on a religious view is irrelevant to the dismissal of "Proof" 50 as its dismissal is not relative to the religion of the source, but to the content of the "Proof" itself.

You are trying to carry a discredit of Einstein and GR/SR based on his religious views, to which I replied:

Good thing his proof for GR/SR didn't consist soley of that statement as "proof" 50 does with it's lack of evidence and lack of being a proof.

Which is a true statement.
Remember the defeat of "Proof" 50 is due to the content, not to the belief of the author, so trying to discredit relativity based on this is just you drawing an incorrect parallel.

Furthermore, regarding your claim of what constituted Einstein's conflict with QM and how your chosen quote was clearly not his "proof":

Entangled "particles" are emitted in a single event. Conservation laws ensure that the measured spin of one particle must be the opposite of the measured spin of the other, so that if the spin of one particle is measured, the spin of the other particle is now instantaneously known. The most discomforting aspect of this paradox is that the effect is instantaneous so that something that happens in one galaxy could cause an instantaneous change in another galaxy. But, according to Einstein's theory of special relativity, no information-bearing signal or entity can travel at or faster than the speed of light, which is finite. Thus, it seems as if the Copenhagen interpretation is inconsistent with special relativity.

Now then, can someone please provide one of the 100 supposed proofs that the Earth is flat?

Actually his proof against QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".

Aka. the argument of "God is on MY side" being his sole and only proof for why he is correct and why QM is wrong.

When did he ever call it proof? When did he say that it absolutely prooved it? How dare you put words in the mouth of such a great man, words that would make him look stupid.

Einstein also said "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love." So clearly he was a supporter of UA.

Can someone post a link to the 100 proofs?  I tried the one in Tom's signature, but it looks like a broken link.

Can someone post a link to the 100 proofs?  I tried the one in Tom's signature, but it looks like a broken link.

Couldn't find "100 proofs", but found "100 misinterpreted observations and examples of general ignorance"

Quote from: Part of the Problem on December 08, 2009, 01:42:10 PM

Can someone post a link to the 100 proofs?  I tried the one in Tom's signature, but it looks like a broken link.

Couldn't find "100 proofs", but found "100 misinterpreted observations and examples of general ignorance"

I guess this will have to do.  Thanks!

I guess this will have to do.  Thanks!

No problem, and I'll be sure to let you know when I find the "100 proofs" those flat earth gentlemen keep referencing. I hear it proves that the earth is flat conclusively!

No, a statement he made regarding QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".  You seem to be confused as to the concept of proof.

Proof being a reason why something is so. Einstein gives the proof of "God does not play dice" for why the QM interpretation for how the universe works is is incorrect and for why his interpretation on how the universe works is correct.

"God is on my side" is Einstein's only comment on the incompatibility between QM and GR/SR. That is all he has to say on the matter. Nothing more is mentioned.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 08, 2009, 03:52:13 PM

"God is on my side" is Einstein's only comment on the incompatibility between QM and GR/SR. That is all he has to say on the matter. Nothing more is mentioned.

Einstein never said God was on his side. Why do you post lame stuff like this Tom? Are you secretly a REer trying to undermine the flat earth cause?

Obviously when Einstein says "God does not play dice" he is saying that he know how God operates and that QM isn't the correct answer.

Einstein is saying that God does things his way with a non-probability based universe.

Sorry Tom that's just 32oz baloney.

While he is expressing reservations with quantum mechanics and it's referral to probability, he's not saying "he knows how God operates".

Actually, he is.

In fact, in a universe entirely explained by laws of pre-determinism, such as Newtonian and Einsteinian, there is no room for God.

Later in life Einstein admitted that he believed in a universal, but not personal (wish granting), God.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 08, 2009, 05:36:47 AM

No, a statement he made regarding QM was "while Quantum Mechanics is certainly imposing... He does not play dice".  You seem to be confused as to the concept of proof.

Proof being a reason why something is so. Einstein gives the proof of "God does not play dice" for why the QM interpretation for how the universe works is is incorrect and for why his interpretation on how the universe works is correct.

"God is on my side" is Einstein's only comment on the incompatibility between QM and GR/SR. That is all he has to say on the matter. Nothing more is mentioned.

He gives an opinion of "God does not play dice" as his statement has no factual backing, nor anything to show it to be true.

and...

Quote

Entangled "particles" are emitted in a single event. Conservation laws ensure that the measured spin of one particle must be the opposite of the measured spin of the other, so that if the spin of one particle is measured, the spin of the other particle is now instantaneously known. The most discomforting aspect of this paradox is that the effect is instantaneous so that something that happens in one galaxy could cause an instantaneous change in another galaxy. But, according to Einstein's theory of special relativity, no information-bearing signal or entity can travel at or faster than the speed of light, which is finite. Thus, it seems as if the Copenhagen interpretation is inconsistent with special relativity.

He gives an opinion of "God does not play dice" as his statement has no factual backing, nor anything to show it to be true.

Neither does GR, but that doesn't stop him from speculating about bends in space fabric.

and...

Quote

Entangled "particles" are emitted in a single event. Conservation laws ensure that the measured spin of one particle must be the opposite of the measured spin of the other, so that if the spin of one particle is measured, the spin of the other particle is now instantaneously known. The most discomforting aspect of this paradox is that the effect is instantaneous so that something that happens in one galaxy could cause an instantaneous change in another galaxy. But, according to Einstein's theory of special relativity, no information-bearing signal or entity can travel at or faster than the speed of light, which is finite. Thus, it seems as if the Copenhagen interpretation is inconsistent with special relativity.

Yes, we know. QM is incompatible and inconsistent with Einstein's version of the universe. Either QM is wrong or Einstein is wrong. Einstein says that QM is wrong because "that's not how God works".

Einstein tells us that there is a God, and he knows how He works.

Einstein tells us that there is a God, and he knows how He works.

Via his opinion.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 08, 2009, 05:03:37 PM

Einstein tells us that there is a God, and he knows how He works.

Via his opinion.

Of course it's his opinion.

When it comes to the nature of the universe, the nature of the earth, and the nature of human kind, the topic of "God" gets played left and right.

Einstein says that "God made the universe this way and that's that"

Newton says that "God made the universe this way and that's that"

Mendel says that "God made us this way that that's that"

It's incredibly common for scholars to incorporate God into their opinions for why things are.

"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the 'old one'. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

Einstein says that "God made the universe this way and that's that"

It doesn't really seem like Einstein even fully believes that "God made the universe this way and that's that." It's an "inner voice," and the theory "says a lot." Seems like his gut feeling says no, but Quantum Mechanics has some good parts and some bad parts. Then again, this is all inference.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 08, 2009, 05:09:28 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 08, 2009, 05:03:37 PM

Einstein tells us that there is a God, and he knows how He works.

Via his opinion.

Of course it's his opinion.

And as we all know, opinion isn't evidence of anything. 

Oh, BTW, Einstein isn't saying that he knows how God works.  He's expressing his opinion that God would make an elegant universe (which is why he personally believed in a steady state universe, despite the fact that his own math contradicted that belief).  QM reduces everything to probabilities and that was not elegant solution in Einstein's opinion.

I think we've drifted off topic a little here.

Quote from: Its a Sphere on December 08, 2009, 05:09:28 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on December 08, 2009, 05:03:37 PM

Einstein tells us that there is a God, and he knows how He works.

Via his opinion.

Of course it's his opinion.

And not proof, just like your opinion is not proof.  Thank you for finally getting up to speed.

Now that we have shown "proof" 50 to be invalid, are there others that will be presented as holding water?

And as we all know, opinion isn't evidence of anything.

Actually, all proofs are opinions.

Astronomical proofs.

Biological proofs.

Chemical proofs.

Even mathematical proofs.