James's theory on dinosaurs

  • 1811 Replies
  • 380173 Views
?

EireEngineer

  • 1205
  • Woo Nemesis
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #240 on: November 25, 2009, 06:07:19 PM »
The Bambiraptor is thought to have had opposable thumbs.  If one had them, others could have had them also.
Thats like saying that because we have opposable thumbs that whales should have them.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

?

Mrs. Peach

  • Official Member
  • 6258
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #241 on: November 25, 2009, 06:28:55 PM »
I disagree.  Whales have no thumbs.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42535
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #242 on: November 25, 2009, 07:06:53 PM »
The Bambiraptor is thought to have had opposable thumbs.  If one had them, others could have had them also.

Bambiraptor wasn't around until well after Pangea broke up.  You need to find a dinosaur with an opposable thumb more than 150 million years old.

I disagree.  Whales have no thumbs.

Well, they do.  Sorta.
Quote from: http://www.whalesongs.org/cetacean/sperm_whales/sperm_internal.html
Flippers of the sperm whale are oval in shape with a rounded tip and may
reach a maximum length of 6 feet (1.8 m.) and a width of 3 feet (91 cm.)

The number of finger bones, or phalanges, in the whale's "hand" has
increased over evolutionary time as front limbs became transformed
into more efficient flippers.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Mrs. Peach

  • Official Member
  • 6258
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #243 on: November 25, 2009, 07:23:08 PM »
Well okay, if you want to call those thumbs, go right ahead.  You can go on one of those whale tourist boats and say, "Look at that whale's thumbs!"   :)

And we're discussing the static continent model, so I'll save your other statement for another day.

?

EireEngineer

  • 1205
  • Woo Nemesis
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #244 on: November 25, 2009, 07:54:52 PM »
Can you point to a preponderance of evidence for multiple species of dinosaurs with opposable thumbs. Also, anyone ever find a trash pile associated with any dinos?  Structured societies leave quite a bit of trash behind usually.  Even ants and bees do.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42535
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #245 on: November 25, 2009, 08:59:32 PM »
Well okay, if you want to call those thumbs, go right ahead.  You can go on one of those whale tourist boats and say, "Look at that whale's thumbs!"   :)

That's why I said "sorta".  Many mammals with flippers usually have some variation of 5 fingers (or 4 fingers + thumb).  They've just taken a different evolutionary path is all.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Mrs. Peach

  • Official Member
  • 6258
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #246 on: November 25, 2009, 09:18:05 PM »
Yes, I know.  I didn't introduce whale thumbs into the equation after all.  You should explain all this to your cohorts.

?

EireEngineer

  • 1205
  • Woo Nemesis
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #247 on: November 25, 2009, 11:39:51 PM »
Yes, I know.  I didn't introduce whale thumbs into the equation after all.  You should explain all this to your cohorts.
Maybe not, but did you really have that much of a hard time understanding my analogy?
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #248 on: November 26, 2009, 05:00:10 AM »
As we have shown, EQ is a lousy measure of intelligence. Yet comparisons based around EQ are somehow not baseless, even though we know nothing about the actual makeup of dinosaur brains (which could put the EQ in a different light)... hmmmm...

I can't understand if you're arguing for or against EQ data. You want to say its lousy and then you want to say its not baseless. Best of both worlds?

I can't help you anymore on this issue. Even using EQ comparisons (which you seem to want to...) they do not suggest that a dinosaur would have the intelligence to built an armada given that their nearest living relative the birds are not capable of such a feat. (Nests are not boats)


I don't think EQ is a useful basis for comparison, as I have said several times. You're the one who wants to use it, but not use other baseless forms of speculation.


I have apologised for the incident where I was wrong. Furthermore, I never said you misquoted me.

Orly?

... in that instance you did not quote me out of context. However, you have done so on several occasions in this topic, often by cutting my quotes into pieces...

(you are aware that I and everyone else can go back and reread posts?)

Time to drop the victim act Wilmore. It's tiresome.


Actually Crustinator, I'm not even sure that you can read posts first time round, never mind re-read them. I mean, seriously, I made the distinction clear in my last post:


Furthermore, I never said you misquoted me. I said you misrepresented my position by taking my quotes out of context.


And here's the quote you're trying to use against me:


... in that instance you did not quote me out of context. However, you have done so on several occasions in this topic, often by cutting my quotes into pieces...


Nowhere do I say you have misquoted me. You are aware there is a massive disntinction between misquoting someone, and quoting them out of context, right? One is misrepresentation through selective quotation, the other is claiming someone has said something they have not. So to reiterate, I never said you misquoted me.


How have I misrepresented my sources? I quoted the source almost verbatim!

What you originally said was:

However, to tackle the issue at hand:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8029933.stm

Quote
This was the first time that any animal had been seen to make a new tool for a specific task, without an extended period of trial-and-error learning.

Right there you have a quote saying that this is the first time a new tool has been created for a specific task.

This was misrepresenting your source by suggesting "this is the first time a new tool has been created for a specific task". Incorrect. What the source was stressing was the lack of an extended trial and error period.

You then wanted your incorrect conclusion to mean that scientists thought crows were better at tool making than apes. Again incorrect.

I corrected you on this matter the first time you posted it. Go back and reread.


I don't need to re-read it. Scientists considered this a first-time event. In other words, apes had never been seen to do this. Therefore, it was more impressive than anything apes had yet done. You can keep dodging by suggesting that I have somehow misrepresented a source that I quoted verbatim, but the fact is that those scientists regarded this as a first for any animal.



Once again, the potential for boat construction has been demonstrated.

Once again. No it hasn't. A wire bending crow does not a dinosaur armada make.


For someone so against redundancy, you sure do repeat yourself a lot. You could really spice up this whole debate by actually presenting an argument every now and again, instead of flat denials.


I am in no way "insist[ing] that there are no other theories".

Your posts indicate otherwise. In the future I suggest you reword your posts a little like this:

"Dinosaur boats and continental drift are the only thing that can account for the fossil record"

or

"The evidence presented by James shows that the evolutionary track followed by certain species can only be explained by inter-continental migration or tectonic plate movement"


Look, if you can't read, it's not my problem. I don't think continental drift can account for the fossil record. That doesn't mean I'm denying the existence of continental drift theory. Your 'rewordings' would indicate that I thought CD was a valid theory, which I do not. However, I'm "suppressing" that theory or denying its existence. I'm just disagreeing.


to support your claim, you need to provide evidence which shows that such conditions existed in the cretaceous period more than at other times in history.

I think you need to learn more about the Cretaceous period before you start thumping the desk. The high amount of volcanic activity at this time is a fact understood by most 9 year olds. As is this.


Let's have a read:


Quote
Scientists theorize that the K?T extinctions were caused by one or more catastrophic events, such as massive asteroid impacts (like the Chicxulub impact), or increased volcanic activity.


First of all, the 'impact event' theory is by far and away the most popular. Secondly, the volcanic activity which some postulate was partially (and I stress, partially) responsible for dinosaur extinction took place in a very specific region. Thirdly, the extinction event took place at the very end of the cretaceous period. The period we're discussing is the early cretaceous.


So basically, that link in no way supports your claims.


Indicating your opinion, but in no way proving it. You may as well say "it's wrong" and then claimed to have proven that it is wrong by claiming as much.

There's nothing to prove and my opinion isn't the issue here. James has presented no evidence, just (wonderful) speculation. This fact remains regardless of the observer.


The distribution of the fossil record is evidence. It just happens to be evidence you are unable to contradict.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

Crustinator

  • 7813
  • Bamhammer horror!
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #249 on: November 26, 2009, 07:37:14 AM »
I don't think EQ is a useful basis for comparison, as I have said several times. You're the one who wants to use it, but not use other baseless forms of speculation.

I'm happy for you. Perhaps you'll stop insisting that crows using twigs has any relevence to anything? *hopeful eyes*

Oh and I fixed your quote above, since this would more accurately represent my view. (Strange how you're not getting it. Oh well.)

Nowhere do I say you have misquoted me. You are aware there is a massive disntinction between misquoting someone, and quoting them out of context, right? One is misrepresentation through selective quotation, the other is claiming someone has said something they have not. So to reiterate, I never said you misquoted me.

The more you baww about being mistreated, the more I smile.

I don't need to re-read it. Scientists considered this a first-time event. In other words, apes had never been seen to do this. Therefore, it was more impressive than anything apes had yet done.

Says who?

For someone so against redundancy, you sure do repeat yourself a lot.

You're a special student.

You could really spice up this whole debate by actually presenting an argument every now and again, instead of flat denials.

Reread my posts.

I don't think continental drift can account for the fossil record. That doesn't mean I'm denying the existence of continental drift theory. Your 'rewordings' would indicate that I thought CD was a valid theory, which I do not. However, I'm "suppressing" that theory or denying its existence. I'm just disagreeing.

I'm not sure what side you're taking here. Either you claim that an armada of dinosaurs is the only explanation for the fossil evidence In which case you're suppressing evidence. Or you don't. In which case you recognise the plausibility of continental drift. Pick a case. Stick with it.

The period we're discussing is the early cretaceous.

Orly? Since when?! Please don't strain your back when you move those goalposts.

So basically, that link in no way supports your claims.

*sigh* yes it does. Cretaceous period = huge amount of volcanic activity + asteroid strike = large amounts of silicates in atmosphere = rapidity of petrification.

I understand now that this is hard for you to understand. I am well prepared to repeat these facts more slowly if it helps.

The distribution of the fossil record is evidence. It just happens to be evidence you are unable to contradict.

Fossil evidence is evidence of fossils.

James has the dinosaurs evolving sewing claws. There's nothing in the fossils to indicate this is the case. I love reading James' romantic tales, and I think they would make a fantastic novel, but they should not be taken literally.

?

Thermal Detonator

  • 3135
  • Definitively the best avatar maker.
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #250 on: November 26, 2009, 10:51:10 AM »
Going back to Trig's argument, the presence of marine fossils in inland areas proves that some areas which are now land were once sea. Therefore, the argument that the land and sea were always in their current configuration has been shown to be baloney. Therefore there is no need for the dinosaurs to have developed sea travel to explain the fossil record. Can Wilmore and Crusty please now stop going all Levee with their rebuttals to each other as it's all now irrelevant?
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #251 on: November 26, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »
I read someone imply that it would be more rational to conclude that there were no sea-faring dinosaur civilizations, but rather that the flat earth just has plate tectonics.

Well, look at what this forum is about. It's dedicated to the idea that the Earth is flat. I am willing to bet you could probably find way more people open minded to the idea of dinosaur civilizations (the "Dinotopia theory"?) than people who will consider the possibility that the Earth could be flat.

I mean, with smart dinosaurs, we're just talking evolution. That's way more easy to accept than the idea that the planet is a flat disc, with an ice wall, and the universe as we know it is one big lie, despite all the evidence out there.


*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #252 on: November 26, 2009, 02:00:03 PM »
I don't think EQ is a useful basis for comparison, as I have said several times. You're the one who wants to use it, but not use other baseless forms of speculation.

I'm happy for you. Perhaps you'll stop insisting that crows using twigs has any relevence to anything? *hopeful eyes*

Oh and I fixed your quote above, since this would more accurately represent my view. (Strange how you're not getting it. Oh well.)


What do crows using tools have to do with EQ? ???


Also, EQ is a useless form of speculation.


Nowhere do I say you have misquoted me. You are aware there is a massive disntinction between misquoting someone, and quoting them out of context, right? One is misrepresentation through selective quotation, the other is claiming someone has said something they have not. So to reiterate, I never said you misquoted me.

The more you baww about being mistreated, the more I smile.


I'm not bawwing. You just keep misrepresenting me. Like you just did. I'm glad you're not denying it anymore.


I don't need to re-read it. Scientists considered this a first-time event. In other words, apes had never been seen to do this. Therefore, it was more impressive than anything apes had yet done.

Says who?


I don't know, the Guiness book of records? Mankind in general? First-time events are usually considered pretty impressive. If I designed a cylinder tomorrow and proclaimed 'Lo, I have here designed this weel for the transportation of bodies and substances', I'm not sure it would attract much attention.


For someone so against redundancy, you sure do repeat yourself a lot.

You're a special student.


Nice to see you're making your usual contributive comments.


You could really spice up this whole debate by actually presenting an argument every now and again, instead of flat denials.

Reread my posts.


One flat denial is enough. I'm not going to go back and read the rest of them.


I don't think continental drift can account for the fossil record. That doesn't mean I'm denying the existence of continental drift theory. Your 'rewordings' would indicate that I thought CD was a valid theory, which I do not. However, I'm "suppressing" that theory or denying its existence. I'm just disagreeing.

I'm not sure what side you're taking here. Either you claim that an armada of dinosaurs is the only explanation for the fossil evidence In which case you're suppressing evidence. Or you don't. In which case you recognise the plausibility of continental drift. Pick a case. Stick with it.


I don't claim it's the only explanation. I claim it's the only valid explanation. I am in no way suppressing evidence. You are using some profundly retarded interpretation of that word. Disagreeing with a theory is not the same as suppressing it.


The period we're discussing is the early cretaceous.

Orly? Since when?! Please don't strain your back when you move those goalposts.


That was when deinonychus existed. We've been talking about deinonychus all along; no goal posts have moved.


So basically, that link in no way supports your claims.

*sigh* yes it does. Cretaceous period = huge amount of volcanic activity + asteroid strike = large amounts of silicates in atmosphere = rapidity of petrification.

I understand now that this is hard for you to understand. I am well prepared to repeat these facts more slowly if it helps.


The Cretaceous period did not have huge amounts of volcanic activity. One area, in modern India, had huge amounts of volcanic activity. The asteroid struck nowhere near this place. A simple way to prove or disprove your claim would be to show that we have more petrified wood from this period than from other periods, but you have yet to show this. Conclusion: no support for your claims.


Of course, even if you could prove this, it still wouldn't apply to the early cretaceous.


The distribution of the fossil record is evidence. It just happens to be evidence you are unable to contradict.

Fossil evidence is evidence of fossils.


Fossil distribution is evidence of where dinosaurs lived and died. Said distribution supports our theory. Seeing as you aren't raising any meaningful points, I'm just going to assume you can't.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 02:12:55 PM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

Thermal Detonator

  • 3135
  • Definitively the best avatar maker.
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #253 on: November 26, 2009, 03:08:38 PM »
Can you guys please stop this arguing? The static continent model has just been disproved and you didn't notice. Your argument has become irrelevant.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

?

Crustinator

  • 7813
  • Bamhammer horror!
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #254 on: November 26, 2009, 03:30:47 PM »
What do crows using tools have to do with EQ? ???

It wasn't that long ago. Let me help you.

Dinosaurs had equal intelligence to crows...

Since you fail to recognise EQ comparisons, this is incorrect.

EQ was also part of James' original argument that you inherited without understanding.

Any 'educated guess' we might make based on brain size falls squarely in favour of the intelligence of dromaeosaurs, because the EQ of the average Deinonychus comes out at roughly 5.8, far, far higher than any living non-human animal today. The ratios for its smaller descendants, Adasaurus and Dromaeosaurus, are probably even better.

James had of course misunderstood how EQ works by comparing the EQ of dinosaurs to other animals, so he abandoned the EQ "evidence".

However, the shear desperation to somehow prove you're right despite all evidence to the contrary lingers like a bad smell.


I'm not bawwing. You just keep misrepresenting me.

No I didn't. You even apologised for claiming I did when I didn't. ::)

If there's anywhere else you think you've been misrepresented I beg you to create a new thread in "Suggestions and Concerns". Of course such claims will be entirely unfounded but at least it will stop you derailing this thread.

I don't know, the Guiness book of records? Mankind in general? First-time events are usually considered pretty impressive.

So no one said "it was more impressive than anything apes had yet done.".

Misrepresenting sources again Wimore? Whenever will you learn?

Nice to see you're making your usual contributive comments.

This whole post is geared towards your education. Please show some respect and try to learn something.

One flat denial is enough. I'm not going to go back and read the rest of them.

*sigh* You've been linked to enough stuff.

You claimed that you'd shown evidence for dinosaurs building boats. After much squealing you revealed that your evidence was "fossil evidence" and some Hunter S. Thompson-esque posts from James.

I've linked various articles showing how intelligence can be measured, how bonobos have built quite complex tools and how petrified wood is made.

If you're telling me you can't be bothered to read the stuff then I'm happy for you.

Disagreeing with a theory is not the same as suppressing it.

Then you can remove the words "only" from each of these posts then.

dinosaur boats are the only thing that can account for the fossil record

The evidence presented by James shows that the evolutionary track followed by certain species can only be explained by inter-continental migration.

Since that was when

...?

The Cretaceous period did not have huge amounts of volcanic activity.

*sigh* Please stop failing so hard.

At the end of the Cretaceous, there were severe climate changes, lowered sea levels, and high volcanic activity .

Massive Early Cretaceous volcanic activity in the Nauru Basin related to emplacement of the Ontong Java Plateau

After the end of the Berriasian, however, temperatures increased again, and these conditions were almost constant until the end of the period.[8] This trend was due to intense volcanic activity which produced large quantities of carbon dioxide.

etc etc.

One area, in modern India, had huge amounts of volcanic activity. The asteroid struck nowhere near this place.

The asteroid strike was a global catastrophe. Please for the love of the baby Jesus learn some history.

A simple way to prove or disprove your claim would be to show that we have more petrified wood from this period than from other periods, but you have yet to show this.

I've already done this. Petrified wood comes largely from periods in time when there was large amounts of volcanic activity. I even drew it out simple for you to understand. You were given articles to read. Stop pretending you haven't been shown it.

Of course, even if you could prove this, it still wouldn't apply to the early cretaceous.

It probably would. But I don't think we were specifying early Cretaceous.

Anyway. here's some petrified wood from the early Cretaceous period.

http://www.safossils.com/petrifiedwoodfossils.html

Still no boats. :'(

Fossil distribution is evidence of where dinosaurs lived and died. Said distribution supports our theory.

No it doesn't. You theory is that dinosaurs built boats, sailed them across open seas with livestock (crocodiles) and took plants with them to colonise new worlds. Oh and they also shaved for some unknown reason.

This theory needs a whole lot more than just the fossilised bones.

Ie Irrelevant/unfounded/absurd conclusion.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #255 on: November 26, 2009, 03:40:33 PM »
some Hunter S. Thompson-esque posts from James

Must you sully the name of the father of gonzo journalism in such a fashion?

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #256 on: November 27, 2009, 02:05:38 AM »
What do crows using tools have to do with EQ? ???

It wasn't that long ago. Let me help you.

Dinosaurs had equal intelligence to crows...

Since you fail to recognise EQ comparisons, this is incorrect.


What? Honestly Crustinator, your use of labguage is baffling. Would recognising EQ comparisons make it correct? I'm pretty sure you'd disagree with that too, so what exactly are you trying to say?


I'm not bawwing. You just keep misrepresenting me.

No I didn't. You even apologised for claiming I did when I didn't. ::)


You were bawwing about how I said you misquoted me just a couple of posts ago. Of course, I never claimed you misquoted me, as I have shown. Thus, you misrepresented my position. Again.


If there's anywhere else you think you've been misrepresented I beg you to create a new thread in "Suggestions and Concerns". Of course such claims will be entirely unfounded but at least it will stop you derailing this thread.


I've warned you about memberating before, so please stop. Poor debating tactics are not against the rules, and thus not an issue for S&C. This board is called 'Flat Earth Debate', and thus debating tactics such as the misrepresentation of another persons argument are entirely relevant.


I don't know, the Guiness book of records? Mankind in general? First-time events are usually considered pretty impressive.

So no one said "it was more impressive than anything apes had yet done.".

Misrepresenting sources again Wimore? Whenever will you learn?


I never claimed anyone said exactly that. However, to draw any other conclusion from the article would be ludicrous.


One flat denial is enough. I'm not going to go back and read the rest of them.

*sigh* You've been linked to enough stuff.

You claimed that you'd shown evidence for dinosaurs building boats. After much squealing you revealed that your evidence was "fossil evidence" and some Hunter S. Thompson-esque posts from James.

I've linked various articles showing how intelligence can be measured, how bonobos have built quite complex tools and how petrified wood is made.

If you're telling me you can't be bothered to read the stuff then I'm happy for you.


Sorry, but nothing you've provided is relevant. For example, you've shown how petrified wood is made, and then claimed this was more likely to happen in the early cretaceous period than at any other time. To back this up, you provided sources referring to the triassic period. Not very convincing.


Disagreeing with a theory is not the same as suppressing it.

Then you can remove the words "only" from each of these posts then.

dinosaur boats are the only thing that can account for the fossil record

The evidence presented by James shows that the evolutionary track followed by certain species can only be explained by inter-continental migration.


All of the above quotes represent my opinion. None of them deny the existence of CD theory. The key word there is 'can': I do not believe other theories can explain the fossil record. Of course they try to, but in my opinion, they do not succeed. This is not "suppression", it's disagreement.


Since that was when

...?


My internet packed up on me last night; see the edit. Basically, Deinonychus lived in the early cretaceous.



The Cretaceous period did not have huge amounts of volcanic activity.

*sigh* Please stop failing so hard.

At the end of the Cretaceous, there were severe climate changes, lowered sea levels, and high volcanic activity .

Massive Early Cretaceous volcanic activity in the Nauru Basin related to emplacement of the Ontong Java Plateau

After the end of the Berriasian, however, temperatures increased again, and these conditions were almost constant until the end of the period.[8] This trend was due to intense volcanic activity which produced large quantities of carbon dioxide.

etc etc.


Source 1 is so childish as to be laughable. Maybe this is the kind of site you frequent regularly, but it doesn't cut the mustard. Source 2 refers to a specific geographic location. Again. The third source refers to the Berriasian period, which occured some 15 million years before Deinoychus existed. So basically, all these sources are irrelevant.



One area, in modern India, had huge amounts of volcanic activity. The asteroid struck nowhere near this place.

The asteroid strike was a global catastrophe. Please for the love of the baby Jesus learn some history.


If the volcanic activity was geographically specific, then the asteroid would not have thrown volcanic dust into the atmosphere unless it struck such a region. This is not difficult to grasp.



I've already done this. Petrified wood comes largely from periods in time when there was large amounts of volcanic activity. I even drew it out simple for you to understand. You were given articles to read. Stop pretending you haven't been shown it.


Nothing you've shown refers to the period in question! All of your sources are out by tens (sometimes hundreds!) of millions of years! They are completely irrelevant! You have shown nothing, repeat nothing, to support your claims.



Of course, even if you could prove this, it still wouldn't apply to the early cretaceous.

It probably would. But I don't think we were specifying early Cretaceous.

Anyway. here's some petrified wood from the early Cretaceous period.

http://www.safossils.com/petrifiedwoodfossils.html

Still no boats. :'(


One example != proof of great conditions.



Fossil distribution is evidence of where dinosaurs lived and died. Said distribution supports our theory.

No it doesn't. You theory is that dinosaurs built boats, sailed them across open seas with livestock (crocodiles) and took plants with them to colonise new worlds. Oh and they also shaved for some unknown reason.

This theory needs a whole lot more than just the fossilised bones.

Ie Irrelevant/unfounded/absurd conclusion.


They could not have developed the way they did without the kind of geographic separation seen in our theory..
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

Thermal Detonator

  • 3135
  • Definitively the best avatar maker.
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #257 on: November 27, 2009, 04:41:10 AM »
tl:dr
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

*

SupahLovah

  • 5167
  • Santasaurus Rex!
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #258 on: November 27, 2009, 07:14:46 AM »
blah blah garbage in the forums.

I think that the dinosaurs not only made boats, but made blimps, too! They filled them with dino farts and flew around the flat disc world!
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #259 on: November 27, 2009, 07:56:48 AM »
Can you guys please stop this arguing? The static continent model has just been disproved and you didn't notice. Your argument has become irrelevant.

I'm guessing that's going to be a no.  It's easier to nitpick points than to realize that there is no point in arguing, though I'm sure Willie will come up with some dino farming/mining to explain the point made.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

?

Crustinator

  • 7813
  • Bamhammer horror!
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #260 on: November 27, 2009, 08:09:53 AM »
What? Honestly Crustinator, your use of labguage is baffling. Would recognising EQ comparisons make it correct? I'm pretty sure you'd disagree with that too, so what exactly are you trying to say?

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some time earlier:

Even using EQ comparisons (which you seem to want to...) they do not suggest that a dinosaur would have the intelligence to built an armada given that their nearest living relative the birds are not capable of such a feat. (Nests are not boats)

You were bawwing about how I said you misquoted me just a couple of posts ago. Of course, I never claimed you misquoted me, as I have shown. Thus, you misrepresented my position. Again.

Another pity party invite? Take this pathetic fail somewhere else please.

I've warned you about memberating before, so please stop. Poor debating tactics are not against the rules, and thus not an issue for S&C. This board is called 'Flat Earth Debate', and thus debating tactics such as the misrepresentation of another persons argument are entirely relevant.

And I'm not interested in answering your bleating about being misrepresented when it's not the case. It's off topic. Create another thread for it.

I never claimed anyone said exactly that. However, to draw any other conclusion from the article would be ludicrous.

It would be wouldn't it? That's why I was so surprised to see you reach this conclusion:

Moreover, I regard the tools created by crows in these experiments as far more impressive than the various ways of hitting things that apes have devised.
That's nice. Your personal opinions are your own. The rest of the world disagrees.
No, you disagree. Leading scientists in the field agree, as my sources show.

Are you now acknowledging that this is not the case? Or do you want to continue insisting I'm quoting you out of context? Either is fine by me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8029933.stm

Quote
This was the first time that any animal had been seen to make a new tool for a specific task, without an extended period of trial-and-error learning.

Right there you have a quote saying that this is the first time a new tool has been created for a specific task. Clearly that is more impressive than making general tools for general tasks, which is why the study was considered so impressive.

Stop crowbarring your own opinion into the mouths of other people.

Sorry, but nothing you've provided is relevant. For example, you've shown how petrified wood is made, and then claimed this was more likely to happen in the early cretaceous period than at any other time. To back this up, you provided sources referring to the triassic period. Not very convincing.

Yes you bawwwed so I gave you some more links to the cretaceous because apparently that was the period under scrutiny. And then you bawwed some more because you suddenly wanted references to early cretaceous. So I gave you them. And yet still you baww.


All of the above quotes represent my opinion. None of them deny the existence of CD theory. The key word there is 'can': I do not believe other theories can explain the fossil record. Of course they try to, but in my opinion, they do not succeed. This is not "suppression", it's disagreement.

No it's denial. Let me apply the same blundering logic:

"UFOs are the only thing that can account for crop circles."

"The evidence presented by www.answerbag.com shows that the increase in homosexuality in the USA can only be explained by the rise in consumption of mountain dew."

It doesn't work. You're not convincing me or anyone that reads this. Saying one thing and then back-pedalling and trying to pretend it says something else is pathetic.

My internet packed up on me last night; see the edit. Basically, Deinonychus lived in the early cretaceous.

I see. As did much of the petrified wood we find. Yet no boats. :'(


Source 1 is so childish as to be laughable. Maybe this is the kind of site you frequent regularly, but it doesn't cut the mustard.

Because something explains something simply it is to be struck out? I see we're heading towards "blanket denial" again.

Source 2 refers to a specific geographic location.

Volcanic debris spreads world wide. Learn volcanos.

The third source refers to the Berriasian period, which occured some 15 million years before Deinoychus existed.

Too pre-cretaceous for you was it? Watch you don't put your back out again with those goal posts. I see you've been moving them a lot lately.

And I gave you three sources. Trying to boot the other one without a reason? LOL

Here have some more:

Cretaceous was a time of elevated global temperatures and there were essentially no polar or high-altitude glaciers . This contributed to elevated sea levels as did the vast development of volcanic activity along Earth's mid-ocean ridges . Such volcanic activity and accompanying swelling of these undersea ridges displaced a considerable volume of seawater (strongly exacerbating sea-level rise).

The high levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere were due to volcanic activity and the break up of the huge Pangean land mass into different continents during the Jurassic and Early Cretaceous Period. New oceans were being created and all these oceans had volcanically active ocean ridges.

Evidence of this massive volcanic activity can be seen in the oceans of our world today.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UaD1WeZcDrwC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=volcanic+activity+during+the+cretaceous&source=bl&ots=6nxYkQXLUx&sig=YlHGfP40FKYAVImX7gcnpnKbTEM&hl=en&ei=UfYPS6H-J8a14Qa6j9iNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwADgK

etc etc etc. yawn.


If the volcanic activity was geographically specific, then the asteroid would not have thrown volcanic dust into the atmosphere unless it struck such a region. This is not difficult to grasp.

Does not compute.

Nothing you've shown refers to the period in question! All of your sources are out by tens (sometimes hundreds!) of millions of years! They are completely irrelevant! You have shown nothing, repeat nothing, to support your claims.

And off we go again with blanket denial. How dull.

You wanted evidence of petrified wood. I gave it to you.

You wanted evidence of Cretaceous petrified wood I gave it to you.

You wanted evidence of early Cretaceous period petrified wood I gave it to you.

One example != proof of great conditions.

*sigh* Don't put your back out as you jack up that burden of proof.

There are many, many more examples.

Here's another: http://petrifiedwoodmuseum.org/SOAngiosperms.htm
And another: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/evolution2.htm

(Protip: Everything we know about plants during the Cretaceous period comes from the fact that they were petrified)

They could not have developed the way they did without the kind of geographic separation seen in our theory..

Yes they could. Continental Drift. You recognise that dinotopia is not the only possible explanation, remember.

We've been round and around so many times I'm getting dizzy.

?

Thermal Detonator

  • 3135
  • Definitively the best avatar maker.
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #261 on: November 27, 2009, 10:11:47 AM »
Both you and Wilmore are only reading each others posts, Crusty. I suggest you look at some of the others in this thread.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 12107
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #262 on: November 28, 2009, 05:44:56 AM »
What? Honestly Crustinator, your use of labguage is baffling. Would recognising EQ comparisons make it correct? I'm pretty sure you'd disagree with that too, so what exactly are you trying to say?

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some time earlier:

Even using EQ comparisons (which you seem to want to...) they do not suggest that a dinosaur would have the intelligence to built an armada given that their nearest living relative the birds are not capable of such a feat. (Nests are not boats)


But I don't care about EQ, as I've said, over and over. You're not making any sense, just one unrelated point after another.


You were bawwing about how I said you misquoted me just a couple of posts ago. Of course, I never claimed you misquoted me, as I have shown. Thus, you misrepresented my position. Again.

Another pity party invite? Take this pathetic fail somewhere else please.

I've warned you about memberating before, so please stop. Poor debating tactics are not against the rules, and thus not an issue for S&C. This board is called 'Flat Earth Debate', and thus debating tactics such as the misrepresentation of another persons argument are entirely relevant.

And I'm not interested in answering your bleating about being misrepresented when it's not the case. It's off topic. Create another thread for it.


How can your posts in this topic be off-topic? Anyway, this is the third time I've had to call you on memberating in this thread, so I'm not going to issue another warning, but a suspension. I've warned you about this in other threads as well, so whilst I've tried to be lenient in order to avoid any more of your 'he banned me because I won the argument' accusations, at this point you're really not leaving me any choice. See you in a bit.


I never claimed anyone said exactly that. However, to draw any other conclusion from the article would be ludicrous.

It would be wouldn't it? That's why I was so surprised to see you reach this conclusion:

Moreover, I regard the tools created by crows in these experiments as far more impressive than the various ways of hitting things that apes have devised.
That's nice. Your personal opinions are your own. The rest of the world disagrees.
No, you disagree. Leading scientists in the field agree, as my sources show.

Are you now acknowledging that this is not the case? Or do you want to continue insisting I'm quoting you out of context? Either is fine by me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8029933.stm

Quote
This was the first time that any animal had been seen to make a new tool for a specific task, without an extended period of trial-and-error learning.

Right there you have a quote saying that this is the first time a new tool has been created for a specific task. Clearly that is more impressive than making general tools for general tasks, which is why the study was considered so impressive.

Stop crowbarring your own opinion into the mouths of other people.


I never claimed that they "said" it was more impressive (you attributed this to me). I simply claim they agree, which is obvious from the content of the articles. None of these quotes show me claiming that these scientists 'say' it's more impressive, and in fact at all times I make that distinction very clear.


Sorry, but nothing you've provided is relevant. For example, you've shown how petrified wood is made, and then claimed this was more likely to happen in the early cretaceous period than at any other time. To back this up, you provided sources referring to the triassic period. Not very convincing.

Yes you bawwwed so I gave you some more links to the cretaceous because apparently that was the period under scrutiny. And then you bawwed some more because you suddenly wanted references to early cretaceous. So I gave you them. And yet still you baww.


I didn't "suddenly" want anything. I hate to break it to you, but we were always talking about Deinonychus, and it always existed in the early cretaceous. The fact that you haven't read up on our theory properly is not my fault.



All of the above quotes represent my opinion. None of them deny the existence of CD theory. The key word there is 'can': I do not believe other theories can explain the fossil record. Of course they try to, but in my opinion, they do not succeed. This is not "suppression", it's disagreement.

No it's denial. Let me apply the same blundering logic:

"UFOs are the only thing that can account for crop circles."

"The evidence presented by www.answerbag.com shows that the increase in homosexuality in the USA can only be explained by the rise in consumption of mountain dew."

It doesn't work. You're not convincing me or anyone that reads this. Saying one thing and then back-pedalling and trying to pretend it says something else is pathetic.


My inability to convince you is not equal to "suppression".



My internet packed up on me last night; see the edit. Basically, Deinonychus lived in the early cretaceous.

I see. As did much of the petrified wood we find. Yet no boats. :'(


Yet still no evidence. That's all I'm asking for: evidence that backs up your claims.


Source 1 is so childish as to be laughable. Maybe this is the kind of site you frequent regularly, but it doesn't cut the mustard.

Because something explains something simply it is to be struck out? I see we're heading towards "blanket denial" again.


It's a totally babyish source without any scientific value. It has cute drawings of dinosaurs and uses childish language. It's aimed at children, and as far as I can see just makes lots of claims without backing them up.



Source 2 refers to a specific geographic location.

Volcanic debris spreads world wide. Learn volcanos.


We have volcanoes now. According to you, the debris would spread world wide. So we should have good conditions for petrified wood now, right? Or maybe you're just trying to get a square peg to go into a round hole.



The third source refers to the Berriasian period, which occured some 15 million years before Deinoychus existed.

Too pre-cretaceous for you was it? Watch you don't put your back out again with those goal posts. I see you've been moving them a lot lately.


Sorry, but Deinoychus never existed in the Berriasian period. This is just a simple fact; Ihaven't been moving any goal posts. We've always been talking about Deinoychus, so why you keep bringing up evidence that's totally unrelated to the period in which Deinoychus lived is beyond me.


And I gave you three sources. Trying to boot the other one without a reason? LOL


I just went through them one by one. What are you talking about?


Here have some more:

Cretaceous was a time of elevated global temperatures and there were essentially no polar or high-altitude glaciers . This contributed to elevated sea levels as did the vast development of volcanic activity along Earth's mid-ocean ridges . Such volcanic activity and accompanying swelling of these undersea ridges displaced a considerable volume of seawater (strongly exacerbating sea-level rise).

The high levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere were due to volcanic activity and the break up of the huge Pangean land mass into different continents during the Jurassic and Early Cretaceous Period. New oceans were being created and all these oceans had volcanically active ocean ridges.

Evidence of this massive volcanic activity can be seen in the oceans of our world today.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UaD1WeZcDrwC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=volcanic+activity+during+the+cretaceous&source=bl&ots=6nxYkQXLUx&sig=YlHGfP40FKYAVImX7gcnpnKbTEM&hl=en&ei=UfYPS6H-J8a14Qa6j9iNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwADgK

etc etc etc. yawn.


Closer examination of all these sources would reveal to you that none of them relate to the time Deinoychus existed. Thus, none of them support your claim that conditions were especially suited to the petrification of wood when Deinoychus was building boats.


Nothing you've shown refers to the period in question! All of your sources are out by tens (sometimes hundreds!) of millions of years! They are completely irrelevant! You have shown nothing, repeat nothing, to support your claims.

And off we go again with blanket denial. How dull.

You wanted evidence of petrified wood. I gave it to you.

You wanted evidence of Cretaceous petrified wood I gave it to you.

You wanted evidence of early Cretaceous period petrified wood I gave it to you.

One example != proof of great conditions.

*sigh* Don't put your back out as you jack up that burden of proof.

There are many, many more examples.

Here's another: http://petrifiedwoodmuseum.org/SOAngiosperms.htm
And another: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/evolution2.htm

(Protip: Everything we know about plants during the Cretaceous period comes from the fact that they were petrified)


None of your examples are relevant. It's not my fault that you can't be bothered to read about our theory. I shouldn't have to hold your hand and point out that you've been providing evidence which simply doesn't apply to the period in question. The cretaceous period is a massive period. It should be obvious that when talking about a particular species, you need to find evidence relating to when that species existed.



They could not have developed the way they did without the kind of geographic separation seen in our theory..

Yes they could. Continental Drift. You recognise that dinotopia is not the only possible explanation, remember.

We've been round and around so many times I'm getting dizzy.


CD has gaps and flaws, and the evolutionary pattern of dinosaurs outlined in the fossil record reveals this.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 05:54:19 PM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

Eddy Baby

  • Official Member
  • 9986
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #263 on: November 28, 2009, 09:24:57 AM »
Both you and Wilmore are only reading each others posts, Crusty. I suggest you look at some of the others in this thread.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42535
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #264 on: November 28, 2009, 11:14:16 AM »
CD has gaps and flaws, and the evolutionary pattern of dinosaurs outlined in the fossil record reveals this.

Interesting.  I would think that the fossil record, when studied along side the geological record, would lend far more support to CD than to the notion that dinosaurs could build ocean going vessels.  Focusing on just the fossil record seems a bit myopic to me.  You really do need to look at the bigger picture and consider all of the evidence, not just the evidence that suits your theory.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #265 on: November 28, 2009, 06:27:16 PM »
Additionally nothing has been proven which supports how these dinosaurs could have taken water and food stores for a several month long journey on the open ocean to support themselves, their "livestock" and their plant life.

Dear me, someone has failed to survey the relevant literature in a rather serious way. Here is an assessment of maritime food sources, ration transportation, etc., for our most studied test case, the late Cretacious North American/Asian dromaeosaur migrant:

Dogplatter, just out of curiosity, how big and sophisticated of boat are you suggesting would be required to carry several Deinonychus, plus their livestock, plus supplies?  I'm guessing that a simple raft wouldn't quite be sufficient, especially if they were to run into rough weather.

We can reasonably assume that an adult Deinonychus would require approximately the same capacity as an adult human based on the weight comparison I've cited (the largest Deinonychus specimens would have weighed around 73kg).

The Mayflower, a human ship known to have made intercontinental voyages and built of wood, is estimated to have been just over 25 metres long, and had a cargo tonnage of 180 and a crew of around 25.

Now, let us assume Saurolophus as a test case for transportation (Deinonychus would likely have had other prey/farm animals as well, but Saurolophus would have been one of the largest), and we also assume that the transported Saurolophus would have been juveniles. A yearling might have weighed somewhere close to a ton (a fully grown bull weighs 1.9).

We've established that adult Deinonychus weighed at most 73kg.

There are 907 Kg in a short ton.

so, a livestock craft of this size could have carried the WEIGHT of around 180 juvenile Saurolophus (with a crew of 25 Deinonychus). However, each adult would have been 9.8 metres long, so nowhere near 180 individuals could fit on. If we consider that a yearling might have been half that length, (say 5M) and that the Mayflower was around 7.6 metres wide, the livestock could be "stacked" width-ways with bills and tails facing starboard and port. With each Saurolophus given 2 metres of the ship's length to accomodate their body width, 11 or 12 animals could be kept on a boat the size of the Mayflower, assuming a deck system existed for the crew to be accomodated. If we don't want to concede that the boat might have had a deck (which I am fine with doing, by the way), then removing 3 animals from that number would allow room for a crew on a single-deck raft. So, to summarise, a Mayflower-sized boat could carry between 9-12 Saurolophus.

A boat the size of the Mayflower [pictured below in a painting by William Halsall (1882)] could have held up to 12 young Saurolophus.


As for passenger crafts, with each Deinonychus at 73kg, and a ship of that size having a maximum capacity of 907kg * 180 (i.e., 163260kg), a ship without livestock could hypothetically carry the WEIGHT of 2000 Deinonychus - of course a ship 25m long would not fit that many individuals, especially if they had food and supplies with them. Thanks to the handy equivalence of human and Deinonychus weight, with adults of both species weighing almost exactly the same, we can get a much better real-world analysis based on the Mayflower itself. The Mayflower crossed the Atlantic with 102 Passengers and their supplies. However, the North Pacific is much less wide than the Atlantic, so far less supplies would be needed for the trip, which means that well over 100 Deinonychus could travel on a single passenger ship of that size.

A fleet of five of these ships, one for passengers, three for livestock and one for general supplies such as tools, clothing, etc., each with a crew of 25 would be more than enough to start a large, successful colony. I'm going for a conservative estimate of 100 passengers per passenger ship and 10 Saurolophus yearlings per livestock ship.

For crew, 25 * 5 = 125, plus 100 passengers = 225 able-bodied adult Deinonychus, 3 * 10 = 30 yearling Saurolophus, and 180 tonnes of additional supplies (salted meats for the journey, saurolophus feed, tools, clothes, etc) setting out on the voyage. That's far more resources than many of the first human Anglo-American colonies started with.


Above: Cretaceous oceans were filled with plesiosaurs, a possible source of food and materials for Deinonychus sailors

Though salted land-animal meat in a supply ship would probably be enough to sustain the crews and passengers of other ships, hunger on the journey would also have been potentially assuaged by fishing and "whaling". The oceans of the Cretaceous were teeming with sharks, rays, as well as ichthyosaurs and plesiosaurs. Some of the larger plesiosaurs would have been up to 20M in length, an incredible catch and having enough meat to sustain a large number of Deinonychus for weeks at sea. It is indicated by the Fossil record that Deinonychus would have known about the existence of plesiosaurs. Specimens of plesiosaur skeletons have been found on the North American continent quite far from the ocean, no doubt brought in by Deinonychus (and later Dromaeosaurus) whalers from the West Coast and traded for blubber, bone and perhaps as zoological attractions.


Above: A specimen of Trinacromerum, a smaller plesiosaur, has been found in the inland United States, probably kept as a pet or traded for blubber.

I am greatly pleased that a body of zetetic scientists of healthy size has been so vociferously advocating the archaeological truth in this thread. I'm sorry I haven't contributed earlier, as I recognise that I am a prominent contributor to the ongoing debate drawn out by the stubborn globularist tectonicists, a number of my own proven theses having been advanced in the course of this contraversial battle between science and globularist fundamentalism.


I should clarify that the discussion regarding EQ ratings has been characterised by misunderstanding - broadly speaking, my overall argument in this regard is a species of proof by cases. If I recall correctly, it ran somewhat along the following lines:

|If the EQ system is a reliable means for assessing the intelligence of dromaeosaurs, it is likely that dromaeosaurs were very intelligent
|If the EQ system is a flawed means for assessing the intelligence of dromaeosaurs, it is likely that dromaeosaurs were very intelligent (by virtue of the other evidence I provided)
_____
|Therefore, it is likely that dromaeosaurs were very intelligent.


If there are any other burning issues, posters of any geomorphic conviction may feel free to formulate them succintly and direct them straight to me, from now on I shall endeavour to keep an eye on any developments in this thread.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #266 on: November 29, 2009, 08:21:50 AM »
So now they can build ocean going ships with sails and steering systems, places for food, livestock, cargo, livestock, food and water for the licestock and a crew to maintain it.  What happened to the raft we started with?

We've now added the ability to know how to design and fabricate sails, create a system to steer the craft, to be able to accurately calculate the size and quantity of ships needed to hold the cargo.  They also have figured out how to calculate rations, fabricate sterile water containers, salt meat for preservation and create tools to fish with on the open sea and then haul a 60 foot long catch on board.

We started at birds can make simple hook shaped tools, then added dinosaurs were likely smarter and arrived at the above story with zero corroborating evidence for any of these abilities.

You also forgot to address:
I was just reminded of one additional aspect that James' speculation overlooks: There are fossils of sea animals everywhere in the continents. James does not only have to explain why the land animals of the Cretaceous found their way to every continent, except maybe Antarctica, but also why there are countless fossils of marine life hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from current seas. In my personal experience, there is a place at least 200 kilometers away from the sea where these fossils are so abundant that the local children collect them and sell them to the tourists. I have one of those in my very own living room.

So, what would be the explanation of this: the sea shells of the Cretaceous just got mad with so many dinosaurs invading the seas, that they decided to walk 200 kilometers into the Andes and more than 6000 feet uphill, to die in peace?

I'm sure we all look forward to the wonderous explanation in chapter 8 of Dino-sailors of the early Cretaceous.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #267 on: November 29, 2009, 10:32:22 AM »
So now they can build ocean going ships with sails and steering systems, places for food, livestock, cargo, livestock, food and water for the licestock and a crew to maintain it.  What happened to the raft we started with?

We've now added the ability to know how to design and fabricate sails, create a system to steer the craft, to be able to accurately calculate the size and quantity of ships needed to hold the cargo.  They also have figured out how to calculate rations, fabricate sterile water containers, salt meat for preservation and create tools to fish with on the open sea and then haul a 60 foot long catch on board.

We started at birds can make simple hook shaped tools, then added dinosaurs were likely smarter and arrived at the above story with zero corroborating evidence for any of these abilities.

There's no "now" or "added", the theory that dinosaurs built high-quality seafaring vessels has been advanced for almost four years now. It is not extrapolated from the capabilities of birds, it is derived from consideration of the fossil record, though considering the capability of birds to build things is useful in suggesting that avians/dinosaurs are capable of anything. It is a corollary, it is not the main explanatory force of the argument.

You also forgot to address:
I was just reminded of one additional aspect that James' speculation overlooks: There are fossils of sea animals everywhere in the continents. James does not only have to explain why the land animals of the Cretaceous found their way to every continent, except maybe Antarctica, but also why there are countless fossils of marine life hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from current seas. In my personal experience, there is a place at least 200 kilometers away from the sea where these fossils are so abundant that the local children collect them and sell them to the tourists. I have one of those in my very own living room.

So, what would be the explanation of this: the sea shells of the Cretaceous just got mad with so many dinosaurs invading the seas, that they decided to walk 200 kilometers into the Andes and more than 6000 feet uphill, to die in peace?

I'm sure we all look forward to the wonderous explanation in chapter 8 of Dino-sailors of the early Cretaceous.

Instead of looking FORWARD, perhaps you ought to be looking BACK ". . . to the wonderous explanation in . . ." LITERALLY MY LATEST POST, the one immediately preceding yours:


.  .  .

Though salted land-animal meat in a supply ship would probably be enough to sustain the crews and passengers of other ships, hunger on the journey would also have been potentially assuaged by fishing and "whaling". The oceans of the Cretaceous were teeming with sharks, rays, as well as ichthyosaurs and plesiosaurs. Some of the larger plesiosaurs would have been up to 20M in length, an incredible catch and having enough meat to sustain a large number of Deinonychus for weeks at sea. It is indicated by the Fossil record that Deinonychus would have known about the existence of plesiosaurs. Specimens of plesiosaur skeletons have been found on the North American continent quite far from the ocean, no doubt brought in by Deinonychus (and later Dromaeosaurus) whalers from the West Coast and traded for blubber, bone and perhaps as zoological attractions.


Above: A specimen of Trinacromerum, a smaller plesiosaur, has been found in the inland United States, probably kept as a pet or traded for blubber.

Furthermore, shellfish specifically have been dealt with in the forum thread "What About the Dinosuars" (2009) pp. 19-21. Here's the link:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=29253.380
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42535
Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #268 on: November 29, 2009, 10:48:02 AM »
There's no "now" or "added", the theory that dinosaurs built high-quality seafaring vessels has been advanced for almost four years now. It is not extrapolated from the capabilities of birds, it is derived from consideration of the fossil record, though considering the capability of birds to build things is useful in suggesting that avians/dinosaurs are capable of anything. It is a corollary, it is not the main explanatory force of the argument.

Wow James, I didn't realize that the fossil record included fossilized boats from the period.  Do you have any links with more information?  By the way, how does the geologic record that supports continental drift fit into your theory?

Quote from: http://science.jrank.org/pages/1749/Continental-Drift-Evidence-theory.html
Technological improvements after World War II supported many of Wegener's ideas about continental drift. New methods of dating and drilling for rock samples, especially from deep-sea drilling ships like the Glomar Challenger, have allowed more precise matching of Pangaea's rocks and fossils. Data from magnetometers (instruments that measure the magnetism of the iron in sea floor rocks) proved that the sea floors have spread since Pangaea's breakup.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #269 on: November 29, 2009, 11:20:10 AM »
Specimens of plesiosaur skeletons have been found on the North American continent quite far from the ocean, no doubt brought in by Deinonychus (and later Dromaeosaurus) whalers from the West Coast and traded for blubber, bone and perhaps as zoological attractions.

sorry if this has already been asked, but do you have a source for this claim (that the plesiosaur skeletons have been found far from the ocean)?