Quote from: Horatio on March 15, 2011, 07:08:06 PMCan there be a rule against using logical fallacies in the upper forum? Listen, I don't like General Disarray's straw man arguments either, but we can't seriously start banning people for making suspect arguments.Quote from: markjo on March 15, 2011, 07:49:07 PMIt's the difference between going to the store to buy a knife and chipping a stone to make a knife.Ah, well the former would be better described as using an existing tool than using existing materials. I think EnglshGentleman's phrasing was better. Anyway, here is the requested evidence:http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9125000/9125227.stmQuoteYoung New Caledonian crows learn to use tools by going to "tool-school", where they can observe their parents at work. These crows are renowned for their extraordinary intelligence and ability to fashion tools to solve problems.. . . Even among this group, New Caledonian crows (Corvus moneduloides) stand out: they make the most complex tools of any animal yet studied apart from humans. For example, they will evolve and improve the shape of their tools over time, and will fashion left handed or right handed tools.. . ."[Juveniles] closely follow and watch their parents' behaviour, are taken to tool using sites, and are 'allowed' to use the tools of their parents," says Dr Hunt. Structuring their education in this way may also help explain how the crows improve their tools over time, as young crows may learn from their parent's mistakes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_Crow#Tool_makingQuoteThe New Caledonian Crow is the only non-human species with a record of inventing new tools by modifying existing ones, then passing these innovations to other individuals in the cultural group. Gavin R. Hunt and colleagues at the University of Auckland studied tools the crows make out of pandanus (or screw pine) leaves: Crows snip into the leaf edges and then tear out neat strips of vegetation with which they can probe insect-harboring crevices. These tools have been observed to come in three types: narrow strips, wide strips and multi-stepped strips?which are wide at one end and, via a manufacturing process that involves stepwise snips and tears, become narrow at the opposite end.[2]Observations of the distribution of 5,500 leaf counterparts or stencils left behind by the cutting process suggest that the narrow and the stepped tools are more advanced versions of the wide tool type. "The geographical distribution of each tool type on the island suggests a unique origin, rather than multiple independent inventions". This implies that the inventions, which involve a delicate change in the manufacturing process, were being passed from one individual to another.[3]The New Caledonian Crow also spontaneously makes tools from materials it does not encounter in the wild, the only non-human species known to do so. In 2002, researcher Kacelnik and colleagues at the University of Oxford observed of a couple of New Caledonian Crows called Betty and Abel: Betty's toolmaking abilities came to light by accident during an experiment in which she and Abel had to choose between a hooked and a straight wire for retrieving small pieces of pig heart, their favorite food. When Abel made off with the hooked wire, Betty bent the straight wire into a hook and used the tool to lift a small bucket of food from a vertical pipe. This experiment was the first time the crows had been presented with wire.[4]Subsequently, this ability was tested through a series of systematic experiments. Out of ten successful retrievals, Betty bent the wire into a hook nine times. Abel retrieved the food once, without bending the wire.[5] The process would usually start with Betty trying to get the food bucket with the straight wire, but then she would make a hook from it bending it in different ways, usually by snagging one end of the wire under something, and then using the bent hook to pick up the tray.Clearly, Betty's creation of hooks cannot be attributed to the shaping or reinforcement of randomly generated behavior. In 2004, Gavin Hunt observed the crows in the wild also making hooks, but the adaptation to the new material of the wire was clearly novel, and also purposeful. This type of intentional tool-making, even if it is generalizing a prior experience to a completely new context, is almost unknown in the animal world. Chimpanzees have great difficulty in similar innovative tasks.The use of direct human activity has been recorded as well. This involves the placing of nuts in front of a vehicle on a heavy trafficked street and waiting for the/a car to crush it open, and then waiting at pedestrian lights with other pedestrians in order to retrieve the crushed nut safely.I've presented all of this several times before, so I really don't understand why I'm being asked to do so yet again.
Can there be a rule against using logical fallacies in the upper forum?
It's the difference between going to the store to buy a knife and chipping a stone to make a knife.
Young New Caledonian crows learn to use tools by going to "tool-school", where they can observe their parents at work. These crows are renowned for their extraordinary intelligence and ability to fashion tools to solve problems.. . . Even among this group, New Caledonian crows (Corvus moneduloides) stand out: they make the most complex tools of any animal yet studied apart from humans. For example, they will evolve and improve the shape of their tools over time, and will fashion left handed or right handed tools.. . ."[Juveniles] closely follow and watch their parents' behaviour, are taken to tool using sites, and are 'allowed' to use the tools of their parents," says Dr Hunt. Structuring their education in this way may also help explain how the crows improve their tools over time, as young crows may learn from their parent's mistakes.
The New Caledonian Crow is the only non-human species with a record of inventing new tools by modifying existing ones, then passing these innovations to other individuals in the cultural group. Gavin R. Hunt and colleagues at the University of Auckland studied tools the crows make out of pandanus (or screw pine) leaves: Crows snip into the leaf edges and then tear out neat strips of vegetation with which they can probe insect-harboring crevices. These tools have been observed to come in three types: narrow strips, wide strips and multi-stepped strips?which are wide at one end and, via a manufacturing process that involves stepwise snips and tears, become narrow at the opposite end.[2]Observations of the distribution of 5,500 leaf counterparts or stencils left behind by the cutting process suggest that the narrow and the stepped tools are more advanced versions of the wide tool type. "The geographical distribution of each tool type on the island suggests a unique origin, rather than multiple independent inventions". This implies that the inventions, which involve a delicate change in the manufacturing process, were being passed from one individual to another.[3]The New Caledonian Crow also spontaneously makes tools from materials it does not encounter in the wild, the only non-human species known to do so. In 2002, researcher Kacelnik and colleagues at the University of Oxford observed of a couple of New Caledonian Crows called Betty and Abel: Betty's toolmaking abilities came to light by accident during an experiment in which she and Abel had to choose between a hooked and a straight wire for retrieving small pieces of pig heart, their favorite food. When Abel made off with the hooked wire, Betty bent the straight wire into a hook and used the tool to lift a small bucket of food from a vertical pipe. This experiment was the first time the crows had been presented with wire.[4]Subsequently, this ability was tested through a series of systematic experiments. Out of ten successful retrievals, Betty bent the wire into a hook nine times. Abel retrieved the food once, without bending the wire.[5] The process would usually start with Betty trying to get the food bucket with the straight wire, but then she would make a hook from it bending it in different ways, usually by snagging one end of the wire under something, and then using the bent hook to pick up the tray.Clearly, Betty's creation of hooks cannot be attributed to the shaping or reinforcement of randomly generated behavior. In 2004, Gavin Hunt observed the crows in the wild also making hooks, but the adaptation to the new material of the wire was clearly novel, and also purposeful. This type of intentional tool-making, even if it is generalizing a prior experience to a completely new context, is almost unknown in the animal world. Chimpanzees have great difficulty in similar innovative tasks.The use of direct human activity has been recorded as well. This involves the placing of nuts in front of a vehicle on a heavy trafficked street and waiting for the/a car to crush it open, and then waiting at pedestrian lights with other pedestrians in order to retrieve the crushed nut safely.
Brother Wilmore, this is most illuminant evidence you have presented to our Institute. I would like to put before the council Further evidence of dinosaurs grand armada would be the finches bill which is a tool adapted for certain nuts. Such a bill might originally have been used for sanding mahogany or chiseling some of the softer woods used in ship building such as pine. We know that birds bills are very adaptable and using their bills in such a way would leave their hands free for nails and rolled tobacco leaves which were probably smoked by site workers.
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.
Quote from: Crustinator on March 16, 2011, 03:26:44 PMBrother Wilmore, this is most illuminant evidence you have presented to our Institute. I would like to put before the council Further evidence of dinosaurs grand armada would be the finches bill which is a tool adapted for certain nuts. Such a bill might originally have been used for sanding mahogany or chiseling some of the softer woods used in ship building such as pine. We know that birds bills are very adaptable and using their bills in such a way would leave their hands free for nails and rolled tobacco leaves which were probably smoked by site workers.Maybe that's why dinosaurs evolved arms; so that they could hold their cigarettes.
Ah ha! Now everything makes sense.
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on March 16, 2011, 12:41:44 PMQuote from: markjo on March 16, 2011, 08:52:34 AMThat's nice. Now, how is this evidence that ancient dinosaurs were able to make tools sophisticated to build a vast armada of ships so that they could migrate across an ocean?That isn't what you asked for, so please don't try to blur the distinction.Hasn't this discussion been going back and forth for the past 60 odd pages about how since modern avian dinosaurs can build floating nests and rudimentary tools, therefore it isn't unreasonable to assume that ancient, non-avian dinosaurs should have been able to construct vast armadas to migrate across oceans?
Quote from: markjo on March 16, 2011, 08:52:34 AMThat's nice. Now, how is this evidence that ancient dinosaurs were able to make tools sophisticated to build a vast armada of ships so that they could migrate across an ocean?That isn't what you asked for, so please don't try to blur the distinction.
That's nice. Now, how is this evidence that ancient dinosaurs were able to make tools sophisticated to build a vast armada of ships so that they could migrate across an ocean?
I want to be very clear about the claims we are making, and I don't want people constructing straw man arguments (which is precisely what RE'ers have been doing throughout this thread).
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.
Hmm, arguing against a Far Side comic, eh? I'm not sure if the credibility could get any lower.
Quote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 07:11:53 PMHmm, arguing against a Far Side comic, eh? I'm not sure if the credibility could get any lower. How about arguing with a Far Side Comic?
I imagine it'd be an easy argument to win.
Quote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 08:05:18 PMI imagine it'd be an easy argument to win. FE VICTORY
Quote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 09:44:18 PMSo, is it fair to say that birds are a subset of dinosaurs, according to you? And humans are a subset of primates?Humans are primates actually.
So, is it fair to say that birds are a subset of dinosaurs, according to you? And humans are a subset of primates?
I expect a dinosaur might have smoked a pipe once in a while. I find it is soothing for the intellect, especially when engaged in some grand project.
How dare you have the audacity to demand my deposition. I've never even heard of you.
We shall have to conduct further oneironautical surveys
[Moved over from raindrop thread]Quote from: sillyrob on March 16, 2011, 09:49:19 PMQuote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 09:44:18 PMSo, is it fair to say that birds are a subset of dinosaurs, according to you? And humans are a subset of primates?Humans are primates actually.I KNOW humans are primates. Do you think humans are the only primates, or do other primates exist? Would that make humans a subset, or are you saying the terms are interchangeable? Anyway, what makes no sense to me is this analogy - Humans:Primates::Birds:Dinosaurs.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?
We're all jealous of Raist.
Quote from: James on March 17, 2011, 04:49:59 AMI expect a dinosaur might have smoked a pipe once in a while. I find it is soothing for the intellect, especially when engaged in some grand project.I find this quote odd unless you mean that birds smoked them. Most animals that we refer to as "dinosaurs" predate tobacco by a long time.As you are not a dinosaur it is rather irrelevant how pipe smoking makes you feel.
Quote from: Around And About on March 17, 2011, 04:24:27 AM[Moved over from raindrop thread]Quote from: sillyrob on March 16, 2011, 09:49:19 PMQuote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 09:44:18 PMSo, is it fair to say that birds are a subset of dinosaurs, according to you? And humans are a subset of primates?Humans are primates actually.I KNOW humans are primates. Do you think humans are the only primates, or do other primates exist? Would that make humans a subset, or are you saying the terms are interchangeable? Anyway, what makes no sense to me is this analogy - Humans:Primates::Birds:Dinosaurs. Do you think T rex are the only dinosaurs, or do other dinosaurs exist? As for interchangeable, no. I have been very clear. Birds are dinosaurs.
Quote from: Ichimaru Gin :] on March 17, 2011, 09:29:18 AMQuote from: Around And About on March 17, 2011, 04:24:27 AM[Moved over from raindrop thread]Quote from: sillyrob on March 16, 2011, 09:49:19 PMQuote from: Around And About on March 16, 2011, 09:44:18 PMSo, is it fair to say that birds are a subset of dinosaurs, according to you? And humans are a subset of primates?Humans are primates actually.I KNOW humans are primates. Do you think humans are the only primates, or do other primates exist? Would that make humans a subset, or are you saying the terms are interchangeable? Anyway, what makes no sense to me is this analogy - Humans:Primates::Birds:Dinosaurs. Do you think T rex are the only dinosaurs, or do other dinosaurs exist? As for interchangeable, no. I have been very clear. Birds are dinosaurs.You do a lot more saying they are than you do actually proving it.
So your link is right because you posted it, and my link is wrong because you didn't? There is still debate out there, it's not 100%.