HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2580 on: December 24, 2019, 03:17:21 PM »

Rubbish! The structure of the ISS has been designed to withstand that stress.
An "ISO Tank Container" is designed to fit the space of a standard 40' ISO shipping container and has a similar diameter to the ISS is tested at 6 Bar, i.e. 6 x normal atmospheric pressure.
Quote
The most common type of tank is UN type T11 which can carry more than 1000 types of dangerous goods. T11 tanks are the most common tank in use, tested to 6 bars of pressure and have a working pressure of 4 bar. (Qualitank keep a number of tanks available which have current valid test certificates.)
This sort of thing:

So why do you find it hard to believe that the ISS cannot withstand an internal pressure of only 14.7 psia?

There's nothing magic about a vacuum - as far as stresses are concerned it's nothing more than a region of almost zero pressure.
A similar sized structure on earth with an internal pressure ot 29.4 psi would be subject to the same stresses.

Are you saying this tank is what holds the fuel in a rocket?
Or is this tank far too small to be a tank for the saturn V?
No, you claimed that the ISS could not withstand the stress of 14.7 psia (almost exactly 1 Bar) inside and 0 psia (the vacuum of space) outside.

So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.

If a tank like than can be built to withstand 6 x the pressure difference experienced by the ISS why should the ISS present an engineering problem?

This video from 1:10 on shows the initial construction of the ISS components on the ground and then being assembled.

Bob Lies AGAIN by Everett Anderson

Forget the earlier bit but I could not find the source of that ISS construction video material.

Quote from: sceptimatic
How big would the saturn V tank be to hold the pressure?
Who brought the Saturn V into it? We were talking about the ISS.
But "the LOX tank was maintained at 18 to 23 psia during flight" and I can't find the pressures in the RP-1 tank but it was probably similar.
The pressure in the tanks has to be enough to feed the fuel to the fuel pumps.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Your rocket is not getting off the ground.
it is not my rocket! The Saturn V was NASA's rocket but why do you claim it "is not getting off the ground"?
Each of the five Rocketdyne F-1 engines on the Apollo 11 Saturn V generated ‎1,522,000 lbf (over 690,000 kg.force).
So the five generated a total thrust of just over 3,450,000 kg.force.
And the launch mass of the Saturn V was 2,970,000 kg so why would it "not get off the ground"?

Quote from: sceptimatic
As for the so called ISS, are you saying this tank is the skin of it?
It is not "the so-called ISS"! It is the ISS and if you bothered to look you could see and photograph the thing.

But, no that tank was just an example of a tank of a similar size to the ISS modules that can witstand over 4 times the pressure difference that the ISS has to.

You can see those ISS modules being built in the workshops in the above video.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2581 on: December 29, 2019, 03:40:49 AM »
Simple:


That makes zero sense and I find it hard how people can be fooled by it.

Balloon top right has an internal left and a force that is unbalanced internal right that is able to escape out the opening.
Net directional motion to the left.

In your version, you were asked to show what part of the rocket is pushed on by the outside expanding gas on gas figt.

Still yet to see.



Forget everyone else, scepti.
Your rocket diagram fails to show what exactly is pushing on the rocket
All you have is your gasongas fight and results in no motion.

And the balloon diagram.
Yoy have no net directional force on the balloon to cause it to move.
Yes there is. Pay attention to it.
Pretending it's not there does not make it not there, except in your head..

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2582 on: December 29, 2019, 03:42:37 AM »
has a similar diameter to the ISS is tested at 6 Bar, i.e. 6 x normal atmospheric pressure.
Are you saying this tank is what holds the fuel in a rocket?
Or is this tank far too small to be a tank for the saturn V?

Don't use quote from others, as if they're mine.

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2583 on: December 29, 2019, 03:53:49 AM »
Simple:


That makes zero sense and I find it hard how people can be fooled by it.

Balloon top right has an internal left and a force that is unbalanced internal right that is able to escape out the opening.
Net directional motion to the left.

In your version, you were asked to show what part of the rocket is pushed on by the outside expanding gas on gas figt.

Still yet to see.



Forget everyone else, scepti.
Your rocket diagram fails to show what exactly is pushing on the rocket
All you have is your gason gas fight and results in no motion.

And the balloon diagram.
You have no net directional force on the balloon to cause it to move.
Yes there is. Pay attention to it.
Pretending it's not there does not make it not there, except in your head..
Try again! You have the action and reaction forces in the same direction but they must be in opposite directions as in rvlvr's original diagram!
Simple:


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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2584 on: December 29, 2019, 04:05:19 AM »

 you claimed that the ISS could not withstand the stress of 14.7 psia (almost exactly 1 Bar) inside and 0 psia (the vacuum of space) outside.
Yep and I stand by it.

Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

Quote from: rabinoz
If a tank like than can be built to withstand 6 x the pressure difference experienced by the ISS why should the ISS present an engineering problem?
Because of two reasons.

1. It would need to be of a certain thickness of metal skin to hold in the near 15 psi of pressure and don't even bother to pretend it's a nothing.

2. A hole punctured into the so called ISS, even a small hole would depressurise extremely quickly against near  zero resistance.
I showed you why with the thermos nib.


There would be none of this slow hissing like you'd get in normal atmospheric conditions we are used to, because your so called vacuum would be vast and not allow any resistance to escaping internal pressure.
A massive difference.

Quote from: rabinoz
This video from 1:10 on shows the initial construction of the ISS components on the ground and then being assembled.

Bob Lies AGAIN by Everett Anderson

Forget the earlier bit but I could not find the source of that ISS construction video material.


Yep, so tell me how they built this mock up?
It wouldn't be from the very same facility, would it?


Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
How big would the saturn V tank be to hold the pressure?
Who brought the Saturn V into it? We were talking about the ISS.
But "the LOX tank was maintained at 18 to 23 psia during flight" and I can't find the pressures in the RP-1 tank but it was probably similar.
The pressure in the tanks has to be enough to feed the fuel to the fuel pumps.
Ok so forget the Saturn V and work out what rockets took up those massive sections. Was it all shuttles?



Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
Your rocket is not getting off the ground.
it is not my rocket! The Saturn V was NASA's rocket but why do you claim it "is not getting off the ground"?
Each of the five Rocketdyne F-1 engines on the Apollo 11 Saturn V generated ‎1,522,000 lbf (over 690,000 kg.force).
So the five generated a total thrust of just over 3,450,000 kg.force.
And the launch mass of the Saturn V was 2,970,000 kg so why would it "not get off the ground"?
I won't argue why it wouldn't get off the ground. I'll let you keep your fantasy about that.

Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
As for the so called ISS, are you saying this tank is the skin of it?
It is not "the so-called ISS"! It is the ISS and if you bothered to look you could see and photograph the thing.

But, no that tank was just an example of a tank of a similar size to the ISS modules that can witstand over 4 times the pressure difference that the ISS has to.

You can see those ISS modules being built in the workshops in the above video.
Yep for the supposed mock up...or should I say, attempts to mock us.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2585 on: December 29, 2019, 04:06:54 AM »

Try again! You have the action and reaction forces in the same direction but they must be in opposite directions as in rvlvr's original diagram!

Bring my amendment to that diagram up and take a little bit of time to see where the reaction to action is.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2586 on: December 29, 2019, 04:40:25 AM »
Yes there is. Pay attention to it.
Technically you are right, but it is pushing it backwards, not forwards, and thus doesn't work as an explanation, and isn't balanced in any way.

You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.
The absolute pressure doesn't matter. What does is the differential.
That is what produces a force on the skin of the tank.

1. It would need to be of a certain thickness of metal skin to hold in the near 15 psi of pressure and don't even bother to pretend it's a nothing.
And what certain thickness is that?
An aluminium drink can can hold considerable pressure.

2. A hole punctured into the so called ISS, even a small hole would depressurise extremely quickly against near  zero resistance.
I showed you why with the thermos nib.
You "showed us why" by completely ignoring the scale.

A small hole would take a long time to depressurise because the gas has mass and thus won't just magically accelerate out instantly.

There would be none of this slow hissing like you'd get in normal atmospheric conditions we are used to, because your so called vacuum would be vast and not allow any resistance to escaping internal pressure.
That is only your delusional fantasy. Back in reality, all the atmosphere does is determine the pressure differential. The gas itself is what creates the resistance, as it can't just magically fly out.

Bring my amendment to that diagram up and take a little bit of time to see where the reaction to action is.
It is quite clear where it is. You have the main force acting on the gas, with the gas being pushed backwards by pure magic and then being pushed forwards by the atmosphere.

Now how about you stop all the BS and address the issue you have continually been avoiding.
You claim that rockets can't work in space because there is nothing for it to use as leverage and that you need atmosphere for motion.
Yet you also claim the gas leaves the rocket, even though that motion would be impossible according to your claims about the rocket.
How does the gas magically leave the rocket without the rocket working? What is the gas pushing against?

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2587 on: December 29, 2019, 04:50:05 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

If a tank is in atmosphere, then the external pressure is 1 bar.
If internal pressure is 6 bar, then the resultant is 5 bar.
It means that the tank can withstand pressure difference of 5 bar (or more, but it was not tested).

If the habitat of the ISS is under pressure of 1 bar, and external pressure is 0 bar,
then the resultant is 1 bar, which is 4 bar weaker.

If the common technology can routinely produce the tank that can withstand at least 5 bar,
then why the Space technology wouldn't produce the tank that withstands 1 bar? :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 04:54:06 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2588 on: December 29, 2019, 04:55:18 AM »
Yes there is. Pay attention to it.
Technically you are right, but it is pushing it backwards, not forwards, and thus doesn't work as an explanation, and isn't balanced in any way.

Quote properly instead of using snippets and answering them without meaning or you'll get this back and waste your own time.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2589 on: December 29, 2019, 04:57:05 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

If a tank is in atmosphere, then the external pressure is 1 bar.
If internal pressure is 6 bar, then the resultant is 5 bar.
It means that the tank can withstand pressure difference of 5 bar (or more, but it was not tested).

If the habitat of the ISS is under pressure of 1 bar, and external pressure is 0 bar,
then the resultant is 1 bar, which is 4 bar weaker.

If the common technology can routinely produce the tank that can withstand at least 5 bar,
then why the Space technology wouldn't produce the tank that withstands 1 bar? :)
Let me make this abundantly clear.



Is that clear enough?

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2590 on: December 29, 2019, 05:01:18 AM »

 you claimed that the ISS could not withstand the stress of 14.7 psia (almost exactly 1 Bar) inside and 0 psia (the vacuum of space) outside.
Yep and I stand by it.
Why do you stand by your fantasy?

Quote from: sceptimatic
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.
But that tank is tested to a pressure of 6 times atmospheric pressure (6 Bar) and the pressure difference between the inside of the ISS is only atmospheric pressure (1 Bar).

Obviously that tank could withstand the same pressure difference as the ISS withstands.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Quote from: rabinoz
If a tank like than can be built to withstand 6 x the pressure difference experienced by the ISS why should the ISS present an engineering problem?
Because of two reasons.

1. It would need to be of a certain thickness of metal skin to hold in the near 15 psi of pressure and don't even bother to pretend it's a nothing.
And the ISS does have the"certain thickness of metal skin to hold in the near 15 psi of pressure" because it was designed that way!

Quote from: sceptimatic
2. A hole punctured into the so called ISS, even a small hole would depressurise extremely quickly against near  zero resistance.
I showed you why with the thermos nib.
But you forgot this:
The volume of that evacuated space in the Thermos would be around 200 ml or 0.0002 m3 and
the pressurised volume of the ISS is 915.5 m3!
The volume of the ISS is about 4,600,000 time that of the vacuum flask - a huge amount more air.

Quote from: sceptimatic
There would be none of this slow hissing like you'd get in normal atmospheric conditions we are used to, because your so called vacuum would be vast and not allow any resistance to escaping internal pressure.
A massive difference.
Rubbish! There is nothing magic about a vacuum and in this case the tiny hole limits the flow and with a pressure difference of only 14.7 psi the hole could be temporarily sealed with a bit of suitable tape, which the do have on the ISS for just that.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Quote from: rabinoz
This video from 1:10 on shows the initial construction of the ISS components on the ground and then being assembled.

Bob Lies AGAIN by Everett Anderson

Forget the earlier bit but I could not find the source of that ISS construction video material.


Yep, so tell me how they built this mock up?
It wouldn't be from the very same facility, would it?
Possibly but they would never have to finish the mock-up to the standards needed for putting into space.
Why would it matter?

I'll ignore the rest as you seem to say nothing of value.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2591 on: December 29, 2019, 05:15:09 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
Quote from: rabinoz
This video from 1:10 on shows the initial construction of the ISS components on the ground and then being assembled.

Bob Lies AGAIN by Everett Anderson

Forget the earlier bit but I could not find the source of that ISS construction video material.


Yep, so tell me how they built this mock up?
It wouldn't be from the very same facility, would it?
Possibly but they would never have to finish the mock-up to the standards needed for putting into space.
Why would it matter?

I'll ignore the rest as you seem to say nothing of value.
Of course you'll ignore the rest.
And as for finishing the mock up to the standards needed for space. There are no standards needed for space. It's a mock up and that's it. It's there to mock us inside a facility where they do all the filming and all the rest of the bullcrap.

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frenat

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2592 on: December 29, 2019, 06:16:12 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

If a tank is in atmosphere, then the external pressure is 1 bar.
If internal pressure is 6 bar, then the resultant is 5 bar.
It means that the tank can withstand pressure difference of 5 bar (or more, but it was not tested).

If the habitat of the ISS is under pressure of 1 bar, and external pressure is 0 bar,
then the resultant is 1 bar, which is 4 bar weaker.

If the common technology can routinely produce the tank that can withstand at least 5 bar,
then why the Space technology wouldn't produce the tank that withstands 1 bar? :)
Let me make this abundantly clear.



Is that clear enough?
Yes, it is clear that you don't understand the engineering differences between keeping pressure in from a higher pressure out versus in from a lower pressure out.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2593 on: December 29, 2019, 06:22:24 AM »

Yes, it is clear that you don't understand the engineering differences between keeping pressure in from a higher pressure out versus in from a lower pressure out.
It's pretty clear you have zero clue.

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frenat

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2594 on: December 29, 2019, 06:27:45 AM »

Yes, it is clear that you don't understand the engineering differences between keeping pressure in from a higher pressure out versus in from a lower pressure out.
It's pretty clear you have zero clue.
That you can't tell that railroad tank could hold far more pressure in the other direction is not my problem. It is yours. It is not the same engineering problem whether you understand it or not.

At least you are entertaining.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2595 on: December 29, 2019, 06:35:03 AM »

Yes, it is clear that you don't understand the engineering differences between keeping pressure in from a higher pressure out versus in from a lower pressure out.
It's pretty clear you have zero clue.
That you can't tell that railroad tank could hold far more pressure in the other direction is not my problem. It is yours. It is not the same engineering problem whether you understand it or not.

At least you are entertaining.
But that's just the point. The argument is about extreme low pressure against atmospheric pressure, whether inside pressure being 15 psi against extreme low pressure or external pressure being 15 psi against extreme internal low pressure/or the tank I put up.

Either way you have a severe problem and would also have it even worse if you pit a so called ISS against so called space vacuum with internal pressure of around 15 psi.

Don't underestimate the pounds per square inch.
The rail tank reminds you of it and so would the fictional ISS is fictional space.

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frenat

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2596 on: December 29, 2019, 06:40:18 AM »

Yes, it is clear that you don't understand the engineering differences between keeping pressure in from a higher pressure out versus in from a lower pressure out.
It's pretty clear you have zero clue.
That you can't tell that railroad tank could hold far more pressure in the other direction is not my problem. It is yours. It is not the same engineering problem whether you understand it or not.

At least you are entertaining.
But that's just the point. The argument is about extreme low pressure against atmospheric pressure, whether inside pressure being 15 psi against extreme low pressure or external pressure being 15 psi against extreme internal low pressure/or the tank I put up.

Either way you have a severe problem and would also have it even worse if you pit a so called ISS against so called space vacuum with internal pressure of around 15 psi.

Don't underestimate the pounds per square inch.
The rail tank reminds you of it and so would the fictional ISS is fictional space.
And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2597 on: December 29, 2019, 06:59:46 AM »

And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.
The rail tank dictates otherwise...and that's reality.

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frenat

  • 3752
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2598 on: December 29, 2019, 07:10:49 AM »

And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.
The rail tank dictates otherwise...and that's reality.
No, the rail tank indicates only that it is weak in one direction. It doesn't show the other direction.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2599 on: December 29, 2019, 10:51:14 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

If a tank is in atmosphere, then the external pressure is 1 bar.
If internal pressure is 6 bar, then the resultant is 5 bar.
It means that the tank can withstand pressure difference of 5 bar (or more, but it was not tested).

If the habitat of the ISS is under pressure of 1 bar, and external pressure is 0 bar,
then the resultant is 1 bar, which is 4 bar weaker.

If the common technology can routinely produce the tank that can withstand at least 5 bar,
then why the Space technology wouldn't produce the tank that withstands 1 bar? :)
Let me make this abundantly clear.



Is that clear enough?

It is to me.
Looks like it is not to you.

The tank shown in your video can be pumped back to the shape.
The material is still whole, only bent.
To break it from inside you need much higher pressure difference.

So: do you really don't understand it?
Or you already understand but hope we can be deceived so easily?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2600 on: December 29, 2019, 12:50:04 PM »
.

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2601 on: December 29, 2019, 01:02:23 PM »

And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.
The rail tank dictates otherwise...and that's reality.
Sorry, this dictates otherwise...and that's reality.
An "ISO Tank Container" is designed to fit the space of a standard 40' ISO shipping container and has a similar diameter to the ISS is tested at 6 Bar, i.e. 6 x normal atmospheric pressure.
Quote
The most common type of tank is UN type T11 which can carry more than 1000 types of dangerous goods. T11 tanks are the most common tank in use, tested to 6 bars of pressure and have a working pressure of 4 bar. (Qualitank keep a number of tanks available which have current valid test certificates.)
This sort of thing:

So why do you find it hard to believe that the ISS cannot withstand an internal pressure of only 14.7 psia?

There's nothing magic about a vacuum - as far as stresses are concerned it's nothing more than a region of almost zero pressure.
A similar-sized structure on earth with an internal pressure of 29.4 psi would be subject to the same stresses.
That "ISO Tank Container" can withstand 6 Bar (87 psi) above atmospheric pressure on Earth.
Why should it be difficult to make a similar diameter container to withstand only 14.7 psi in a vacuum on Earth or in space?

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2602 on: December 29, 2019, 01:16:48 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz
Possibly but they would never have to finish the mock-up to the standards needed for putting into space.
Why would it matter?

I'll ignore the rest as you seem to say nothing of value.
Of course you'll ignore the rest.
And as for finishing the mock up to the standards needed for space. There are no standards needed for space. It's a mock up and that's it. It's there to mock us inside a facility where they do all the filming and all the rest of the bullcrap.
This the rest of it.
Quote from: sceptimatic
How big would the saturn V tank be to hold the pressure?
Who brought the Saturn V into it? We were talking about the ISS.
But "the LOX tank was maintained at 18 to 23 psia during flight" and I can't find the pressures in the RP-1 tank but it was probably similar.
The pressure in the tanks has to be enough to feed the fuel to the fuel pumps.
Ok so forget the Saturn V and work out what rockets took up those massive sections. Was it all shuttles?



Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
Your rocket is not getting off the ground.
it is not my rocket! The Saturn V was NASA's rocket but why do you claim it "is not getting off the ground"?
Each of the five Rocketdyne F-1 engines on the Apollo 11 Saturn V generated ‎1,522,000 lbf (over 690,000 kg.force).
So the five generated a total thrust of just over 3,450,000 kg.force.
And the launch mass of the Saturn V was 2,970,000 kg so why would it "not get off the ground"?
I won't argue why it wouldn't get off the ground. I'll let you keep your fantasy about that.
You won't argue because you have no reasonable answer so you just ridicule!

Quote from: sceptimatic
Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
As for the so called ISS, are you saying this tank is the skin of it?
It is not "the so-called ISS"! It is the ISS and if you bothered to look you could see and photograph the thing.

But, no that tank was just an example of a tank of a similar size to the ISS modules that can withstand over 4 times the pressure difference that the ISS has to.

You can see those ISS modules being built in the workshops in the above video.
Yep for the supposed mock up...or should I say, attempts to mock us.
Again just a meaningless non-answer!

So what was in there that's not been answered or just meanings meaningless attempts at ridicule?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2603 on: December 29, 2019, 02:18:51 PM »
Simple:


That makes zero sense and I find it hard how people can be fooled by it.

Balloon top right has an internal left and a force that is unbalanced internal right that is able to escape out the opening.
Net directional motion to the left.

In your version, you were asked to show what part of the rocket is pushed on by the outside expanding gas on gas figt.

Still yet to see.



Forget everyone else, scepti.
Your rocket diagram fails to show what exactly is pushing on the rocket
All you have is your gasongas fight and results in no motion.

And the balloon diagram.
Yoy have no net directional force on the balloon to cause it to move.
Yes there is. Pay attention to it.
Pretending it's not there does not make it not there, except in your head..

Hapoy new years.


Where.
Which sodcific arrow was pointing on what part of the ballon?
rocket?
Colour it green or something so everybody knows.
Why talk so mysteriously.
Make yourself plainly and obviously clear.

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JackBlack

  • 21874
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2604 on: December 29, 2019, 02:50:50 PM »
Quote properly instead of using snippets and answering them without meaning or you'll get this back and waste your own time.
The only one wasting time here is you.
You continually provide the same refuted garbage and baseless claims and do whatever you can to avoid the key issues which shows your claims to be pure garbage.

Let me make this abundantly clear.

Is that clear enough?
Yes, quite clear. You either have no idea what you are talking about or you are blatantly lying to everyone.
Notice how that has a lower pressure inside, not a higher pressure?
Like I said before (and provided a simple experiment you can do yourself), tanks like that are much more capable of withstanding high pressure inside as that requires literally tearing it apart as opposed to a lower pressure inside which just requires buckling the container.

So this either shows that you have no idea what you are talking about as you do not understand the importance of the directionality of that force and thus this example doesn't show anything to support you, or you are lying because you know that doesn't support you yet you still present it as if it does.

Like I said, go get a simple plastic drinking bottle. Then suck all the air out and you easily crush the bottle. But try breathing into it all you want and you will find that you can't break the bottle at all.

Another simple example is a sheet of paper. Try holding something with a sheet of paper, and seeing just how much weight is required to break it, making sure the paper is fixed at the top and the weight is at the bottom.
Then try doing it again with the weight at the top and the paper fixed and the bottom. You will find it takes a lot less weight to have the weight at the top fall than it does to have the paper be torn apart.

The argument is about extreme low pressure against atmospheric pressure, whether inside pressure being 15 psi against extreme low pressure or external pressure being 15 psi against extreme internal low pressure/or the tank I put up.
No, the actual point is that those 2 scenarios are very different. The directionality of the force matters. You equating the 2 shows you don't understand or are lying.
The equivalent scenarios would be a tank at 2 bar in the atmosphere and a tank at 1 bar in a vacuum. In both cases there is a pressure differential of 1 bar.

Another set of equivalent scenarios would be a tank at 1 bar (kept at one bar by adding or removing gas as needed) in an atmosphere at 2 bar, vs a tank under vacuum in an atmosphere of 1 bar.

And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.
The rail tank dictates otherwise...and that's reality.

In order for that to be true you would need to have that tank full of 1 atm of pressure and put it in a vacuum. Until you do that you cannot honestly say that it dictates otherwise. Again, you are relying upon your fantasy to try and reject reality.

Meanwhile, my simple experiment with a water bottle or sheet of paper shows otherwise, that the directionality matters, because an object under tension behaves differently to an object under compression.

Now again, why not address the key issue?
How does the gas leave the rocket in a vacuum, when you have declared that such motion is impossible?
Again, it needs to push against something, and the only thing available is the rocket, meaning the rocket would be pushed and work in a vacuum.
Until you actually address this, your claim will remain pure fantasy and the reality of rockets working in a vacuum will remain unchallenged.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2605 on: December 29, 2019, 05:01:54 PM »
Its all a distraction deflection from his diagram.
Dont drag this on for another 20pg guys!
Scepti needs to sort out his diagram.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2606 on: December 30, 2019, 12:27:57 AM »

And you still don't understand that it isn't the same. The direction matters. That rail tank could withstand the pressure difference in the other direction easily, just as the ISS could.
The rail tank dictates otherwise...and that's reality.
No, the rail tank indicates only that it is weak in one direction. It doesn't show the other direction.
It doesn't show the other direction because the tank is under atmospheric pressure.

Let's make this even plainer.
What do you think would happen to that tank if pressurised and placed in an extreme low pressure environment and punctured?


Let me give you a few hints.

If that tank had a puncture whilst under pressure, against normal atmospheric pressure external to it, you would lose pressure against that resistance. It would be a pretty fast release but the release would be resisted and it would take a good while for the tank to be emptied.

Place that same tank in an extreme low pressure environment and you have very little resistance to the pressure inside getting out of that puncture hole, meaning you would have a massive exodus of air pressure, losing that pressure in that container in extreme short order.


The very same would happen if you reverse it, as in the tank in the picture being evacuated and put into extreme low pressure internally with the evacuated air adding to the pressure externally which will eventually crush the tank....but....but.....if you punctured a hole in that tank before it buckled, it would immediately fill with external atmosphere from what was taken from it, just like the snapped nib of a thermos.

Your space stuff is fantasy and will remain sci-fi.


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2607 on: December 30, 2019, 12:32:33 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
So I showed a photo of a tank that has a working pressure of 4 Bar above the outside pressure. That tank is regularly pressure tested to 4 Bar.
You showed me a tank that works under atmospheric conditions, noit in your space.

If a tank is in atmosphere, then the external pressure is 1 bar.
If internal pressure is 6 bar, then the resultant is 5 bar.
It means that the tank can withstand pressure difference of 5 bar (or more, but it was not tested).

If the habitat of the ISS is under pressure of 1 bar, and external pressure is 0 bar,
then the resultant is 1 bar, which is 4 bar weaker.

If the common technology can routinely produce the tank that can withstand at least 5 bar,
then why the Space technology wouldn't produce the tank that withstands 1 bar? :)
Let me make this abundantly clear.



Is that clear enough?

It is to me.
Looks like it is not to you.

The tank shown in your video can be pumped back to the shape.
The material is still whole, only bent.
To break it from inside you need much higher pressure difference.

So: do you really don't understand it?
Or you already understand but hope we can be deceived so easily?
Nobody's asking for it to be broken from the inside. It's irrelevant at this point of argument.
The argument is the puncture hole and release of internal pressure to supposed space of zero resistance to it.

You're arguing it without knowing what you're arguing against.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2608 on: December 30, 2019, 12:35:10 AM »

That "ISO Tank Container" can withstand 6 Bar (87 psi) above atmospheric pressure on Earth.
Why should it be difficult to make a similar diameter container to withstand only 14.7 psi in a vacuum on Earth or in space?
You're not marrying up anything here.

Deal with your space and an internal pressure like your ISS argument.
What you're showing me is a compressed air tank against a compressed air external environment.

It doesn't marry up. Get your act together.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2609 on: December 30, 2019, 01:06:08 AM »

That "ISO Tank Container" can withstand 6 Bar (87 psi) above atmospheric pressure on Earth.
Why should it be difficult to make a similar diameter container to withstand only 14.7 psi in a vacuum on Earth or in space?
You're not marrying up anything here.
And you not answering the question.
I asked, "Why should it be difficult to make a similar diameter container to withstand only 14.7 psi in a vacuum on Earth or in space?"
Please answer if with something better than ridicule.

Quote from: sceptimatic
Deal with your space and an internal pressure like your ISS argument.
What you're showing me is a compressed air tank against a compressed air external environment.

It doesn't marry up. Get your act together.
My act's already together, thanks.

As far as any stresses on a container are concerned it makes not the slightest difference whether
  1) the internal pressure is 6 Bar (87 psi) above atmospheric pressure on Earth, ie 7 Bar absolute (103 psia) or
  2) the internal pressure is 6 Bar (87 psi) above zero pressure in space, ie 6 Bar absolute (87 psia).

The stress on a tank, a tyre or the ISS depends only on the difference in pressure.

If you disagree please give logical reason and show how you would calculate the stress.
If you cannot calculate the stress on a simple cylinder your ideas are worthless because real engineers have to do just that!