Flat Earth was once generally accepted as truth.

Quote from: mallory d. on December 25, 2011, 02:14:46 PM

How on earth do you make that jump? Me thinking we had no idea the earth was round when trains were invented, shees I was ONLY referring to when time zones not when someone First came up with a round earth theory.........now TIME ZONES were establishes because they were having issues predicting arrivals.....that's a pretty big leap you made.

Then let me rephrase: are you saying that people didn't understand time zones until they started using trains? I don't see how that's a huge leap since you asked: "does this sound to you like people who understood time zones?" And I also don't think that linking understanding of time zones to understanding of RET is a huge leap either, as they go hand in hand. Trig commented that the existence of time zones is one way we can conclude for ourselves that the Earth is round and you responded by questioning whether people 400 years ago were aware of time zones, implying that they wouldn't have as easily concluded the Earth is round.

In any case, I wasn't sure if that was what you were saying, which is why it was a question.

Quote from: mallory d. on December 25, 2011, 02:14:46 PM

I don't agree with you. That COMMON EVERY DAY farmers and candlestick makers, butchers and servants had no clue. They were the majority and those with knowledge were in th minority. Plain and simple.

I don't believe that's correct. Many of the observations listed on that page I linked to could have been done by the common man, especially since travel was common, like differences in constellations and ships on the horizon. And "those with knowledge" also taught others and created maps. The general population did not still believe the Earth was flat mere centuries ago. That's just an arrogant modern myth. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_myth.

Get back to you tomorrow, just got to hotel... three layovers with two kids suck.....
You make some good points I wish to touch on. To be clear you and i have the same beliefs just some minor differences in of our thoughts on how educated the lower and middle class were.
i will read you link as well. too much for the moment.

And "those with knowledge" also taught others and created maps
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I do agree with this as well as a few other points.  Early maps and records of celestial bodies is a very interesting topic to me.

Quote from: mallory d. on December 24, 2011, 07:41:57 PM

People traveled at a much slower pace and did not note the difference in time as easily. Perhaps when sailing they noticed it better but other travel was much slower.
Tell me how many people do you imagine had a private telescope? Those who had a telescope were of the elite and did not speak out on their own findings if they were understanding enough to have any. Few spoke out probably because it was also heretical. Spanish inquisition is a good example they would stop scientific progress.

I don't see how the speed of travel matters all that much. People have been concluding that Earth is a globe for far longer than 400 years ago, so I don't think it fell under the category of scientific "progress".

I agree. For people at the time of Columbus the fact that those in America were seeing the dawn when at home everyone was already preparing lunch was quite unimportant or even unknown. The fact that made all the difference in the world was that as they navigated into the West the stars would move (apparently) to the East, so every navigator was aware that the Earth is round since before Columbus.

I mentioned the time zones because in modern times they are impossible to deny, even for those who don't know a thing about astronomy. The combination of heliocentrism and the apparent movement of the stars as you travel East or West (or the existence of time zones)  is all you need to conclude that Earth is round.

And of course the knowledge about science, including Cosmology, was dismal for all except a few from the times of the Greeks to the industrial revolution. In my opinion, it is still shamefully bad. Uneducated people probably assumed the Earth is flat until very recently, and lots of people hear about this fact today but have no idea why we know this because science teachers are in many cases inept and science students are in many cases not much better. Just search Tom Bishop and University to see what I am talking about.

Hoping to reach India, as taught to everyone in both Europe and India, Columbus realised the Earth was Flat.

Using genovian maps that could help someone from one location on the Flat Earth to sail in a concentric circle pattern around the earth's center in North Pole Arctic Circle, was a difficult feat then.

Especially if you sought to sail from Europe in an arch like pattern, through the endless ocean, to India more than 180 degrees, or half the distance of the world disc.

For this Columbus required compass to point directly west, without which sailing in a straight line might have thrown him off the World's Edge, far away from both Europe and India.

So sailing around the world's center in the Arctic Sea, was necessary. Making sure their compass wasn't broken, the winds still threw them off course a bit south, I expect. But not enough to throw them into the Ecuatorial Calm, which they knew very well to avoid. For not avoiding it, meant they would be tossed in the Outer World, and thus closer to the World's Edge, and furthest away from India, than before.

Thus Columbus the Flat Earther made sure he would sail course describing a perfect circle around the World's Core, instead of sailing directly ahead, into Antarctica, and hit the World's Edge.

That's why this journey was so feared. They had no way of knowing they would sail perfectly at the same latitude, in a circle, instead of a line, failing to reach India completely.

Spain being in the same Concentric Circle as India, sailing on the Flat Earth, westwards, and ending up on the other side in India, should be perfectly viable. Unless you hit some other continent like America, instead.

If Columbus has simply walked cross America, from east to west, then continued to sail on new built ships, keeping the same latitude, they would have reached India. Assuming they didn't miss course on the vast Pacific.

This is why this was so dangerous and "risque". Having known the Earth is Flat, keeping course perfectly west to hit India, from "beyond the seas", was very difficult. It's like hunting blindfolded, with the barrel of your gun pointed behind you, over your shoulder, and hoping to actually hunt something.

So it was very dangerous. Dying at sea, being lost in the "Okeanos" myth these young europeans still inherited from the Greeks, the myth that Eurasia and Lybia are the only land masses on the Flat Earth, and the rest is 90% vast sea called "Okeanos".

Columbus knowing how hard it would be to keep this west course perfectly until they sailed in a semi circle over 300 degrees around the Core of the Flat Earth, would be most perilous, he was only hired by the most desperate of Kingdoms.  The Catholics who were losing trade to the Ottoman horde and barely defeated the Moor pirates, were desperate enough to rekindle their trade with the Orient.

Since sailing around a flat earth would indeed give them this opportunity they bravely took the chance. Only America was in their way, blocking their ships from sailing directly west. Oh well.

The other course was sailing through the Arctic Sea, over Eurasia, but of course most of them died from the cold and lack of supplies or fresh water on this nothern route.

While the route down beneath Africa, close to Edge of the World in Antarctica, then through the Indian Ocean was very slow because it went beyond the capes of very large continents, and requires them to sail through the Southern Seas, which are the largest of all, compared to very small Northern Seas.

So only a middle course was possible, on this Flat Earth they worshipped. Not one too northern to avoid the Arctic cold, not one too southern to fall beneath the Ecuator into the vast Southern seas that neared the Outer Edge, but just right. In the middle, in perfect latitude. As Spain has a comparable latitude to India, sailing directly west in a semi circle to it, was even faster than having to walk east in a semi circle to reach the Orient and India.

Since seas were a lot safer from pirates which thrived in ports of Africa and the Orient, there would have been only clear sailing westwards on Okeanos. Unless another continent halted their advance, which they may have no expected to happen. In this case their path to India would be blocked on the Flat Earth, by another continent.

Enough of your complications. This is FET history and it's the most reasonable of all. Or have you not enjoyed proper European education to understand this ...

Are you implying if the Earth were Flat ........ there would be Eternal Day and Eternal Night on it?

Those, in fact, do exist. Flat Earth does explain why some regions have to have Eternal Day and Eternal Night.

Unless you suggest an Imoble Flat Earth, where the sky above it stays perfectly still "somehow mysteriously because you said so", and thus day would only happen in one of it's sectors, whilst night would prevale throught the rest?

The Flat Earth may be motionless, but the sky hardly is. Just like the air and wind is very mobile, it doesn't stay as still as the Earth beneath it. Like a Wind mill, where the moving air spins it's wheel, or a Water wheel where the rushing water spins it's wheel, again.

If you are unable to comprehend the basic effect of Water mills or Wind mills principles, and how they are spinning because of the invisible air pushing it, you are utterly useless.

Again, even your distorted version of the FET, as you shortly are able to perceive it, implies some regions of the Flat Earth should be brighter, while the opposite region is darker.

This actually happens, when summer is in the Inner Core of the flat Earth (Europe, Asia, Canada), whilst winter in the Outer Realm (Australia, Africa, South America, Antarctica).

Unless you can prove the continents are not arranged as everyone can prove they are, you have just been smacked in the face by FET. Which already knew opposing parts of the Flat Earth should be warmer, or more bright, while the opposite part is colder, and less bright.


Again, search Arctic Night, which happens during the Antarctic Day, and Arctic Day, which creates the Antarctic Night, opposite it's region of influence.

If you cannot even comprehend the kind of basic geography proven by a flashlight and any flat drawing of the world's continents, you are clearly a Twat Pie.

I thank you.

Quote from: zarg on December 24, 2011, 10:55:45 PM

Quote from: mallory d. on December 24, 2011, 07:41:57 PM

People traveled at a much slower pace and did not note the difference in time as easily. Perhaps when sailing they noticed it better but other travel was much slower.
Tell me how many people do you imagine had a private telescope? Those who had a telescope were of the elite and did not speak out on their own findings if they were understanding enough to have any. Few spoke out probably because it was also heretical. Spanish inquisition is a good example they would stop scientific progress.

I don't see how the speed of travel matters all that much. People have been concluding that Earth is a globe for far longer than 400 years ago, so I don't think it fell under the category of scientific "progress".

I agree. For people at the time of Columbus the fact that those in America were seeing the dawn when at home everyone was already preparing lunch was quite unimportant or even unknown. The fact that made all the difference in the world was that as they navigated into the West the stars would move (apparently) to the East, so every navigator was aware that the Earth is round since before Columbus.

I mentioned the time zones because in modern times they are impossible to deny, even for those who don't know a thing about astronomy. The combination of heliocentrism and the apparent movement of the stars as you travel East or West (or the existence of time zones)  is all you need to conclude that Earth is round.

And of course the knowledge about science, including Cosmology, was dismal for all except a few from the times of the Greeks to the industrial revolution. In my opinion, it is still shamefully bad. Uneducated people probably assumed the Earth is flat until very recently, and lots of people hear about this fact today but have no idea why we know this because science teachers are in many cases inept and science students are in many cases not much better. Just search Tom Bishop and University to see what I am talking about.

Absolutely right in my opinion about sea navigators already knowing the earth is round. Or at least concluding that it might be. I will need some more time to read through the wiki. I am at a family reunion for a weeks so I ask for more time.

To be honest though Silverdane....I'm perplexed.