How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2015, 07:11:26 PM »
Again. If the sun that illuminates Mars is the same that illuminates Earth, FE and DE fantasies are automatically disproved.

The distance from Mars and Earth is much greater. If the sun can be seen from Mars, then that "Sunset occurs because the sun in far away" is automatically disprove. The FE Sun-Earth distance also is disproved.

So there's no choice for FE believers: They must discredit every mission, always.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2015, 07:28:33 PM »
I would respond to Kirk Johnson, but the roundies would accuse me of derailing, once again, even thoughh he is the one going on and on about Mars in a thread that has nothing to do with Mars. 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2015, 09:42:54 PM »
I am not the one who changed the subject.  You and Kirk Johnson started talking about Mars missions.  I pointed out that NASA may be lying about Mars as well.  Why do you pretend that FE'ers are the ones changing the subject? 
Do you realize you lied in this post? Multiple times.

This sounds like a deceitful debate tactic, but it is one that can easily be defeated, much like the rest of your RET.
The debate tactic you seem to follow.

I would respond to Kirk Johnson, but the roundies would accuse me of derailing, once again, even thoughh he is the one going on and on about Mars in a thread that has nothing to do with Mars.
To sum up this and the previous comment, you have shown yourself as a hypocrite and a liar. Congratulations, you have just been promoted to my top worst moderator I have ever seen. You could have stopped the off-topic part a long ago, but you did absolutely nothing.


And we have 4th page with the unanswered question:  How far is the Sun in FE model? 3000 miles // 5000 km does not work.



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Son of Orospu

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2015, 10:28:27 PM »
I am not the one who changed the subject.  You and Kirk Johnson started talking about Mars missions.  I pointed out that NASA may be lying about Mars as well.  Why do you pretend that FE'ers are the ones changing the subject? 
Do you realize you lied in this post? Multiple times.

Really?  How did I lie when you two were having this conversation that I responded to with a Mars picture?  OK, I will admit that it was mostly Kirk who derailed the thread into a Mars discussion, but you can't blame me when I respond to him on topic. 

Also, can you guys keep your discussion about the Mars and other bodies, including ISS, fakery or random things and conspirancy theories unrelated to the topic off this thread? Start your own thread and talk about anything you wish to, and even go off-topic if you feel that is the best thing to do.

Mars is a linchpin here. Rovers on surface providing images and the fact that the same sun illuminates the Earth and Mars - and the Moon, too - is enough evidence to, again, refute the flat earth "theory": It proves the Sun's distance to Earth is much more than the Moon's. This refutes a thousand-kilometer distance between Earth and Sun.

As I said, this is entirely relevant to this topic. Since mars receive less light from the Sun - It even looks smaller on Mars POV, implying greater distance - means the Heliocentric model is correct - Mars is farther away from the sun than the Earth - and their orbits too. And that automatically disproves (again and again) the flat earth model.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2015, 05:26:55 AM »
Really?  How did I lie when you two were having this conversation that I responded to with a Mars picture?  OK, I will admit that it was mostly Kirk who derailed the thread into a Mars discussion, but you can't blame me when I respond to him on topic. 
This is really a pathetic excuse.

I appreciate your contribution to the thread (posting the 3000 miles image with explaination), but nothing more. Please do not waste more of my time in this thread unless you have something to say that covers the topic.

Same thing to Kirk Johnson, who started this off-topic trash. Same to everyone else...

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2015, 07:19:47 AM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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Master_Evar

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2015, 07:45:41 AM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
Since apparently the sun is 3100 miles up (according to FET) and the south pole is 6200 miles south of the equator, the sun would be approx 26.6° up.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2015, 08:43:58 AM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
Since apparently the sun is 3100 miles up (according to FET) and the south pole is 6200 miles south of the equator, the sun would be approx 26.6° up.
  • I was using rough numbers, but your numbers work fine.
  • The sun does not look like it is 26.6° up anyways.
  • Changing the numbers does not disprove the concept.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2015, 08:57:08 AM »
I would respond to Kirk Johnson, but the roundies would accuse me of derailing, once again, even thoughh he is the one going on and on about Mars in a thread that has nothing to do with Mars.

Mars is not derailment. Observations from Mars are proof that the distance Sun-Earth is much higher than some thousand miles - The same discussion a topic by the title "How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km." has.

Discussion about NASA faking missions, that's derailment.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2015, 09:42:17 PM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
I would use the North Pole image insead, as based on FET, the South Pole (geographic) does not exists.

For the Sun being approximately 1 diameter of itself above the horizon, which is ~0.50 angle, for the object 5000 km above the surface, the distance  (horizontal) to it should be around 573,000 km.

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2015, 05:03:15 AM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
I would use the North Pole image instead, as based on FET, the South Pole (geographic) does not exists.

For the Sun being approximately 1 diameter of itself above the horizon, which is ~0.50 angle, for the object 5000 km above the surface, the distance  (horizontal) to it should be around 573,000 km.
Exactly!!! In all single disk FE models, this picture, taken from Antarctica, is IMPOSSIBLE. Pictures of the S. Celestial Pole (center of the south star trails) are IMPOSSIBLE because the SCP can not be seen from above the disk... and so on...
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2015, 01:31:36 PM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
I would use the North Pole image instead, as based on FET, the South Pole (geographic) does not exists.

For the Sun being approximately 1 diameter of itself above the horizon, which is ~0.50 angle, for the object 5000 km above the surface, the distance  (horizontal) to it should be around 573,000 km.
Exactly!!! In all single disk FE models, this picture, taken from Antarctica, is IMPOSSIBLE. Pictures of the S. Celestial Pole (center of the south star trails) are IMPOSSIBLE because the SCP can not be seen from above the disk... and so on...
sorry-who took these pics.must have been someone special to get permission.they were taken from Antarctica facing south-odd.makes sense if they were facing north.

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2015, 02:08:22 PM »
If you would please post your point in a single, concise question, I will be happy to provide you with an answer.
Sure. Let me ask the question once again.

How far is the Sun in FE model? Can you provide valid proof/link/calculations/source for that?

3000 miles, and here is how it  was calculated. 

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/5000-for-proving-the-earth-is-a-globe/3/#mmGal
...
Brouwer and Master_Evar have basically said what I was going to say. Basically, like the "Eratosthenes experiment", two points, conveniently equidistant (i.e. +/- 45°) are insufficient to draw conclusions. Different latitudes would make different angles. Look at my pictures from the S.Pole above, ~0.5° would either push the sun out 344,000 mi or at the equator, 6225 mi from the poles, the Sun would be 54.3 mi up. In other words, the 3000 mi height value in your example means exactly nothing. This type of experiment can not determine the height of the Sun directly. IT CAN, with several points, determine the SHAPE of the Earth (it is the reverse of the "Eratosthenes experiment"). Once the shape of the Earth is known, using the values from the experiment, you CAN determine the height of the Sun.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2015, 02:10:49 PM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
I would use the North Pole image instead, as based on FET, the South Pole (geographic) does not exists.

For the Sun being approximately 1 diameter of itself above the horizon, which is ~0.50 angle, for the object 5000 km above the surface, the distance  (horizontal) to it should be around 573,000 km.
Exactly!!! In all single disk FE models, this picture, taken from Antarctica, is IMPOSSIBLE. Pictures of the S. Celestial Pole (center of the south star trails) are IMPOSSIBLE because the SCP can not be seen from above the disk... and so on...
sorry-who took these pics.must have been someone special to get permission.they were taken from Antarctica facing south-odd.makes sense if they were facing north.
These were taken from Antarctica facing north obviously.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

?

Master_Evar

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2015, 09:23:19 AM »
Here is a picture of the Sun during an equinox taken in 30 minute intervals from near the S. Pole:

(http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/vtour/pole/dome/life/sun/)
If the Sun is above the equator at equinox, and Antarctica is some 4000 mi south of the equator, and the Sun is some 4000 mi up, on a Flat Earth model, wouldn't the Sun be approximately 45° up?
Since apparently the sun is 3100 miles up (according to FET) and the south pole is 6200 miles south of the equator, the sun would be approx 26.6° up.
  • I was using rough numbers, but your numbers work fine.
  • The sun does not look like it is 26.6° up anyways.
  • Changing the numbers does not disprove the concept.
I know. Just so that the FE's doesn't nitpick on the numbers.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2015, 09:54:05 PM »
Is this how starting a serious debate on FES forum ends?

Is there literally no Flat Earther able to discuss the topic?

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2015, 10:54:41 AM »
Is this how starting a serious debate on FES forum ends?

Is there literally no Flat Earther able to discuss the topic?
the problem is that re's wont admit there are simple flaws in the re model. that's why we are on here in the first place.its a shame re's don't look past what the world has drilled into them.you must remember that superior people aren't cleverer-they just make you look dumber.the face of the moon looks the same is every country.so that cant be right in the re model.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2015, 11:19:21 PM »
the problem is that re's wont admit there are simple flaws in the re model. that's why we are on here in the first place.its a shame re's don't look past what the world has drilled into them.you must remember that superior people aren't cleverer-they just make you look dumber.the face of the moon looks the same is every country.so that cant be right in the re model.
Thank you for posting irrelevant to the topic information.

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rabinoz

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2015, 02:30:08 AM »
the problem is that re's wont admit there are simple flaws in the re model. that's why we are on here in the first place.its a shame re's don't look past what the world has drilled into them.you must remember that superior people aren't cleverer-they just make you look dumber.the face of the moon looks the same is every country.so that cant be right in the re model.

The little problem here is that I fail to see any FE supporters posting any of these "simple flaws in the re model" 
Where is there any RE problem with "the face of the moon looks the same is every country.so that cant be right in the re model."?  That is no problem at all for the RE model.
1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.
2)  The moon appears to rock slightly as seen from earth (lunar libration) show over time about 59% of surface.

So many so-called problems seem be like this,  simply a failure of a FE supporter to understand some aspect of the rotating globe model.  I have seen it far worse on YouTube FE videos.  I think that most posters on YouTube have a far poorer understanding of both models than most FE supporters on this site.
Mind you at last count there were at least three quite different FE models!

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2015, 02:57:42 AM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change. 

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LuggerSailor

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2015, 03:42:02 AM »
So many so-called problems seem be like this,  simply a failure of a FE supporter to understand some aspect of the rotating globe model. 

And here we have a good example of a misunderstanding;


1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.

The angular size of the moon is indeed about 0.5 degrees but two observers looking from opposite sides of the globe (one seeing the moon newly risen while the other seeing it about to set) would be observing the moon from 2 degrees of separation.
This 2 degrees is the aproximate angular size of the earth viewed from the moon.
LuggerSailor.
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rabinoz

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2015, 03:43:05 AM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.
Be reasonable, I said "angle" hoping it would be clear I meant the angle of the face the moon shows to us.
I didn't think anyone would for a moment think the size changed by a factor of five.
Most people would know that the face we see does change a little due to both parallax and libration.
(My spell checker has kittens over libration - wants to call it liberation!)

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2015, 08:24:26 AM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.
You misunderstand astronomy.

The size of the Moon as viewed from the Earth, 0.5°, doesn't change much (depends on how far the Moon is from the Earth). This like the sun being 0.5° also, hence Solar Eclipses (it also changes very little based on the Earth's elliptical orbit).

We see 50% of the surface all the time. But we can see more surface, up to the 9° because viewing the Moon from say Alaska/Norway and Argentina/Australia introduces a viewing angle, east (moonrise) to west (moonset) changes the angle slightly too, the Moon's orbit is inclined ~5°, its axis is tilted ~1.5°, etc. See the pictures and explanation here (especially the 2nd paragraph) (http://www.stargazing.net/david/moon/moonlibration.html).

BTW, Lunar Libration, per the photos above, can not be explained by a flat disk.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2015, 08:26:58 AM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.
You misunderstand astronomy.

The size of the Moon as viewed from the Earth, 0.5°, doesn't change much (depends on how far the Moon is from the Earth). This like the sun being 0.5° also, hence Solar Eclipses (it also changes very little based on the Earth's elliptical orbit).

We see 50% of the surface all the time. But we can see more surface, up to the 9° because viewing the Moon from say Alaska/Norway and Argentina/Australia introduces a viewing angle, east (moonrise) to west (moonset) changes the angle slightly too, the Moon's orbit is inclined ~5°, its axis is tilted ~1.5°, etc. See the pictures and explanation here (especially the 2nd paragraph) (http://www.stargazing.net/david/moon/moonlibration.html).

BTW, Lunar Libration, per the photos above, can not be explained by a flat disk.

Oh, so you have nothing and you will spout gibberish when you are cornered.  Good to know. 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2015, 08:39:35 AM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.
You misunderstand astronomy.

The size of the Moon as viewed from the Earth, 0.5°, doesn't change much (depends on how far the Moon is from the Earth). This like the sun being 0.5° also, hence Solar Eclipses (it also changes very little based on the Earth's elliptical orbit).

We see 50% of the surface all the time. But we can see more surface, up to the 9° because viewing the Moon from say Alaska/Norway and Argentina/Australia introduces a viewing angle, east (moonrise) to west (moonset) changes the angle slightly too, the Moon's orbit is inclined ~5°, its axis is tilted ~1.5°, etc. See the pictures and explanation here (especially the 2nd paragraph) (http://www.stargazing.net/david/moon/moonlibration.html).

BTW, Lunar Libration, per the photos above, can not be explained by a flat disk.

Oh, so you have nothing and you will spout gibberish when you are cornered.  Good to know.
Where is the definitive answer for the distance to the sun?

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2015, 07:47:34 PM »

1)  The moon looks almost the same from all countries.  The most the angle can change due to location on earth is around 2 deg.

Considering that the average angular size of the moon is around .5 degree, 2 degrees is a lot of change.
You misunderstand astronomy.

The size of the Moon as viewed from the Earth, 0.5°, doesn't change much (depends on how far the Moon is from the Earth). This like the sun being 0.5° also, hence Solar Eclipses (it also changes very little based on the Earth's elliptical orbit).

We see 50% of the surface all the time. But we can see more surface, up to the 9° because viewing the Moon from say Alaska/Norway and Argentina/Australia introduces a viewing angle, east (moonrise) to west (moonset) changes the angle slightly too, the Moon's orbit is inclined ~5°, its axis is tilted ~1.5°, etc. See the pictures and explanation here (especially the 2nd paragraph) (http://www.stargazing.net/david/moon/moonlibration.html).

BTW, Lunar Libration, per the photos above, can not be explained by a flat disk.

Oh, so you have nothing and you will spout gibberish when you are cornered.  Good to know.
Like JRoweSkeptic (I believe you are him also), you don't understand astronomy. Don't embarrass yourself like he did in my telescope alignment thread. This is not gibberish as anyone who has a telescope or camera with a zoom lens would tell you. The pictures of the Moon are real. All FE models are fantasies that can not explain the pictures (what we see and photograph). Those pictures can be taken by anyone with a camera with a zoom lens so you argue from ignorance or stupidity.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2015, 01:24:48 AM »
the problem is that re's wont admit there are simple flaws in the re model. that's why we are on here in the first place.its a shame re's don't look past what the world has drilled into them.you must remember that superior people aren't cleverer-they just make you look dumber.the face of the moon looks the same is every country.so that cant be right in the re model.
Thank you for posting irrelevant to the topic information.
anytime!

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2015, 01:32:13 AM »
FET is falling apart.

It seems that noone is able to present any valid number with the reference to the proof.

You do not know the distance, so how then can you discuss things like day/night, seasons, sunsets/sunrises and other optical effects?

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2015, 02:00:33 AM »
Using the distane of 9000 km I derived earlier, and assuming 5000 km distance, I did some math to determine the refractive index of whatever could bend the light from the Sun. The bending is such that the Sun 9000 km off would seem to be setting/rising. Using Snellius law (index of vacuum = 1) I found the index of the other side to be around 1.144. If you take into account that air index is ~1.0003, we have a serious deviation. Even liquid helium has only 1.025.

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2015, 03:57:46 AM »
FET is falling apart.

It seems that noone is able to present any valid number with the reference to the proof.

You do not know the distance, so how then can you discuss things like day/night, seasons, sunsets/sunrises and other optical effects?
They can't. That was my point in telescope alignment. All it is is hand-waving and making bold vague untrue statements.
“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."