How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2015, 12:04:14 PM »
Hi Everyone.Im brand new here-so gonna make an impact.i thought the sun and moon were 32miles in diameter and 3000miles from us.Its either that or 93million miles away.
Simple as that. I do however have the best proof the world is flat-who interested.i will be searching to see if this has been mentioned before and I think I can explain the star trails too!
This is the best forum yet and ive totally annoyed the naked scientists-theres only 6 of them I think!

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2015, 12:56:01 PM »
This entire topic seems pointless to me. It's like creating a post to ask "How far is L.A. from N.Y." - the distance is already know with an acceptable precision.

Yes, the distance between the Sun and Earth is well known for some time now. There's variation, but never  http://www.universetoday.com/14437/how-far-is-earth-from-the-sun/

There's no use in debating over facts. They won't change.

"The difference in distance between Earth's nearest point to the Sun in January and farthest point from the Sun in July is about 5 million kilometers (3.1 million miles). Earth is about 147.1 million kilometers (91.4 million miles) from the Sun at perihelion in early January, in contrast to about 152.1 million kilometers (94.5 million miles) at aphelion in early July. "

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2015, 01:52:51 PM »
what are the chances the sun and moon are the same size.the fact that you cant distinguish a 2 cars from 10 km away,but you can see a satellite in the sky which is 300km in the sky apparently with the naked eye.something like that.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2015, 01:55:56 PM »
what are the chances the sun and moon are the same size.the fact that you cant distinguish a 2 cars from 10 km away,but you can see a satellite in the sky which is 300km in the sky apparently with the naked eye.something like that.

This can help. http://www.space.com/6870-spot-satellites.html

You're welcome!

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Jadyyn

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2015, 02:59:43 PM »
what are the chances the sun and moon are the same size.the fact that you cant distinguish a 2 cars from 10 km away,but you can see a satellite in the sky which is 300km in the sky apparently with the naked eye.something like that.
You are mistaken. Someone tried to prove this type of argument, that some highly regarded research showed that the human eye can only resolve to 24 arcseconds. This may be true for some things but not LIGHT. I pointed out that we can see a 1" flash light a mile away. It should not be visible past 716'. Laser beams - many miles away.

Stars are many light-years away and we can see them. Galaxies are millions of light-years away and we can see their light. The Hubble is even resolving stars in them (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/loXDVGi_lK0/maxresdefault.jpg).

So, your argument is flawed. Get a flash light and check.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. W.C. Fields.
"The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 03:18:08 AM »
If you would please post your point in a single, concise question, I will be happy to provide you with an answer.
Sure. Let me ask the question once again.

How far is the Sun in FE model? Can you provide valid proof/link/calculations/source for that?

Let me repeat myself for sake of completness. This is just a composition of my posts from the beginning:
Quote
Assumptions:
1. Earth is flat.
2. Sun has fixed physical size (a ball).  Apparent change in size of the Sun is caused by the Sun moving away from us. Assuming disc shape the results are similar to the ones below.
3. Calculations are done for the observer on the equator, during 12h long day.
4. Whenever I write "=", I approximate. I tried minimizng rounding errors.

The angular size of the sun is 31'6'' to 32'7''. This is enough to calculate both diameter and the distance to the Sun.

Notion:
d - the distance to the Sun (to the surface)
R - radius of the Sun

The math:
We have a right triangle with side (d^2+2dR)^(1/2) and legs: R and d+R. If A is the angular diameter, then A/2 is the angle between (d^2+2dR)^(1/2) and d+R. R is the radius of the Sun.
Picture: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=64777.msg1727720#msg1727720
Then we have

sin A/2= R/(d+R)

so

d/R=(1-sin A/2)/(sin A/2).

Now take A=31.6' to obtain

d/R=107.7909868

and A=32.7' to obtain

d/R=104.131456

This gives d between 104.131456R and 107.7909868R.

In 6h, the Sun will move 9003.1632km away horizontally (1/4th of the circumference, adjusted to straight line - a diagonal of a square).

Using Pythagoras theorem we find that R=323.2912km, and so d=33653.7747km.

For the disk shape of the Sun:
I repeated calculations for the disk and obtained ~320km diameter and ~33600km distance. Basically the same result as for ball model.

...


To show how wrong the argument from wiki is:
Quote
Thomas Winship, author of Zetetic Cosmogony, provides a calculation demonstrating that the sun can be computed to be relatively close to the earth's surface if one assumes that the earth is flat --
    On March 21-22 the sun is directly overhead at the equator and appears
    45 degrees above the horizon at 45 degrees north and south latitude. As
    the angle of sun above the earth at the equator is 90 degrees while it is
    45 degrees at 45 degrees north or south latitude, it follows that the angle
    at the sun between the vertical from the horizon and the line from the
    observers at 45 degrees north and south must also be 45 degrees. The result
    is two right angled triangles with legs of equal length. The distance between
    the equator and the points at 45 degrees north or south is approximately 3,000
    miles. Ergo, the sun would be an equal distance above the equator.
We can repeat the same experiment (same date). The Sun remains overhead at the equator. But this time instead of 45 degrees we take 5 degrees (this can be seen close to the North Pole). The math says that if one of legs is 3000 miles and the angle between hypotenuse and the other leg is 5 degrees, then the other leg has almost 34290 miles. This is how far the observer would have to be from the equator to see the Sun at 5 degree angle. Which is nonsense as the distance from the equator to the NP is significantly smaller.


This entire topic seems pointless to me. It's like creating a post to ask "How far is L.A. from N.Y." - the distance is already know with an acceptable precision.

Yes, the distance between the Sun and Earth is well known for some time now. There's variation, but never  http://www.universetoday.com/14437/how-far-is-earth-from-the-sun/

There's no use in debating over facts. They won't change.

"The difference in distance between Earth's nearest point to the Sun in January and farthest point from the Sun in July is about 5 million kilometers (3.1 million miles). Earth is about 147.1 million kilometers (91.4 million miles) from the Sun at perihelion in early January, in contrast to about 152.1 million kilometers (94.5 million miles) at aphelion in early July. "
Can you refrain from posting unrelated things? This thread is devoted to FE model and the distance in this model only.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 03:33:20 AM »
what are the chances the sun and moon are the same size.the fact that you cant distinguish a 2 cars from 10 km away,but you can see a satellite in the sky which is 300km in the sky apparently with the naked eye.something like that.

This can help. http://www.space.com/6870-spot-satellites.html

You're welcome!
r u a FE'r or not?

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 04:12:58 AM »
If you would please post your point in a single, concise question, I will be happy to provide you with an answer.
Sure. Let me ask the question once again.

How far is the Sun in FE model? Can you provide valid proof/link/calculations/source for that?

3000 miles, and here is how it  was calculated. 

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/5000-for-proving-the-earth-is-a-globe/3/#mmGal

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2015, 06:02:49 PM »
I don't think that anybody even understands what your rant means.  I was tempted to move it to the AR section when I first saw it, but left it just in case someone else can make any sense out of your drivel.  If you want people to actually respond, it would help to make an intelligible post to start with.
Why is it a rant?  Just needs more explanation.

He could actually explain his point, instead of just hitting random letters and numbers.

LOL

"Math I don't understand? Must just be his ranting and not my own ignorance"
I am the worst moderator ever.

Waah! Waah! I can't be bothered to learn anything! Waah!

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 06:40:03 PM »
The earth's position can be tracked and seen in the Martian sky, and the Sun in nowhere close to it. Therefore, that flat earth model is (again, and again...) refuted.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 11:18:03 PM »
If you would please post your point in a single, concise question, I will be happy to provide you with an answer.
Sure. Let me ask the question once again.

How far is the Sun in FE model? Can you provide valid proof/link/calculations/source for that?

3000 miles, and here is how it  was calculated. 
...
I have seen this. I even made a comment in previous post. I will repost this with more details.

Take three observers. For 1st the Sun in overhead at the equator. For 2nd the Sun is at 45 degrees angle (so we have the same setup as the picture you posted). For 3rd the Sun is at 5 degrees (actually, 30 is enough (ask people from Norway/Sweden/Finland), but 5 shows a bit more extreme error; 5 degrees is close to the North Pole). 1st and 2nd are 3000 miles away, so it follows that the Sun is 3000 miles far. Now, with that knowledge, 3rd can calculate his distance from 1st. The math says that if one of legs is 3000 miles and the angle between hypotenuse and the other leg is 5 degrees, then the other leg has almost 34290 miles. So, the North Pole is, based on this experiment, at least 34290 miles away from the equator. But it is not.

The problem with the way the distance was calculated in the source you posted is that it gives different values for different latitudes (or, equivalently, different angles objects cast on the surface).

If we take just two observers and repeat the experiment with 1st situatet at the equator  and second moving from the equator to the NP, you will receive values that start from >billions close to the equator and going to just few miles close to the NP.

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 11:23:16 PM »
Where did you get the 5 degrees from and how did you test the angle of the sun? 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 11:37:02 PM »
Viewed from Mars, the sun is much farther away than the moon is from Earth. Since FE claim a sun as near as the moon, it is false. The sun that illuminates earth and mars is the same. Right, flat earthers? Anyone disagree?

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 11:45:01 PM »
Viewed from Mars, the sun is much farther away than the moon is from Earth. Since FE claim a sun as near as the moon, it is false. The sun that illuminates earth and mars is the same. Right, flat earthers? Anyone disagree?

When did you perform this experiment from Mars?  Oh, are you relying on what NASA says?  You do realize that they get caught lying quit often?

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Master_Evar

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2015, 12:08:10 AM »
I did some calculations for the suns highest position on my latitude (57.7N) during equinox. According to round earth, it should be 32 (90-58 (rounding), no accounting for refraction, which should be minimal when the sun is at it's highest position in the sky) and according to flat earth it would be almost 38 (Distance to equator = 4000 miles (rounded). Height of sun in FE model over equator = 3100 miles (after correcting the measurement in the article, and rounded from a slightly higher number). arctan = 3100/4000 = 37.8). So the differences between a flat earth and a round earth are measurable here. Even more measurable further north.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 12:10:03 AM by Master_Evar »
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2015, 12:22:57 AM »
Viewed from Mars, the sun is much farther away than the moon is from Earth. Since FE claim a sun as near as the moon, it is false. The sun that illuminates earth and mars is the same. Right, flat earthers? Anyone disagree?

When did you perform this experiment from Mars?  Oh, are you relying on what NASA says?  You do realize that they get caught lying quit often?

Any legit examples of them getting caught intentionally lying, or are you just going off of what the bullshit conspiracy sites say they're lying about?

You do know that there has been multiple people here on Earth who has caught a video of the ISS and other large Satelites Transiting the moon, right?

There's also multiple sites and apps that allow you to see when visible satellites will flyby over head, and if you look carefully enough in the sky you can see them(provided it's dark out and light pollution doesn't block it out). What's your excuse for that one?
I am the worst moderator ever.

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 02:13:19 AM »
You can't use Google to look up examples of NASA lying? 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 05:55:20 AM »
I did some calculations for the suns highest position on my latitude (57.7N) during equinox. According to round earth, it should be 32 (90-58 (rounding), no accounting for refraction, which should be minimal when the sun is at it's highest position in the sky) and according to flat earth it would be almost 38 (Distance to equator = 4000 miles (rounded). Height of sun in FE model over equator = 3100 miles (after correcting the measurement in the article, and rounded from a slightly higher number). arctan = 3100/4000 = 37.8). So the differences between a flat earth and a round earth are measurable here. Even more measurable further north.
Thanks for providing that example. I was referring to ~60 degree N in my post, and you have just provided an even greater example of it. The refraction factor can be skipped, as based on wiki, it just a fraction of a degree (less than 1 degree anyway). The result according to ~3100 miles value is as predicted - the Sun is higher than it can be observed during the equinox.

Where did you get the 5 degrees from and how did you test the angle of the sun?
The place does not matter. All you need is relatively low angle (5 was just an example, which can be observed near the North Pole, as my post stated). Testing the angle is just measuring it. With the 5 degree example, an error of 1 degree will not produce any number close to ~3000 miles.

It is clear that the ~3000 miles explaination is flawed. The height of the Sun (angles) exposes it.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:57:50 AM by Brouwer »

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 06:02:43 AM »
Also, can you guys keep your discussion about the Mars and other bodies, including ISS, fakery or random things and conspirancy theories unrelated to the topic off this thread? Start your own thread and talk about anything you wish to, and even go off-topic if you feel that is the best thing to do.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2015, 10:19:39 PM »
Come one guys. Any other ideas?

The question is simple, yet noone has provided any verifiable answer yet. Only jroa decided to provide anything valuable to the topic, but what he quoted was quickly rejected due to an easy observation. 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2015, 12:23:03 AM »
Viewed from Mars, the sun is much farther away than the moon is from Earth. Since FE claim a sun as near as the moon, it is false. The sun that illuminates earth and mars is the same. Right, flat earthers? Anyone disagree?

When did you perform this experiment from Mars?  Oh, are you relying on what NASA says?  You do realize that they get caught lying quit often?

I am assuming NASA information - in this case, images and a video taken from Mars showing us the Sun, as well as the Mars missions - as true. This is not a statement they made about something.

Since NASA is a government-agency I believe this material is audited. Government is paying for all of it, right? Better be real material.

And I also object to the "fact" that they lie a lot. That's a red herring. The fact that they lie does not contradict anything: The material is audited anyway.

Also, NASA has too much failures in its past. If there was a conspiracy, why would they "stage" these? Serves no purpose.

Unless you can falsify those images and the video, they stay as truth. The American government wouldn't accept those missions for so many time without a way of checking its veracity.

Adding insult to injury (for FE): NASA is not the only agency/company/organization that sent stuff to the red planet.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2015, 12:33:44 AM »
Also, can you guys keep your discussion about the Mars and other bodies, including ISS, fakery or random things and conspirancy theories unrelated to the topic off this thread? Start your own thread and talk about anything you wish to, and even go off-topic if you feel that is the best thing to do.

Mars is a linchpin here. Rovers on surface providing images and the fact that the same sun illuminates the Earth and Mars - and the Moon, too - is enough evidence to, again, refute the flat earth "theory": It proves the Sun's distance to Earth is much more than the Moon's. This refutes a thousand-kilometer distance between Earth and Sun.

As I said, this is entirely relevant to this topic. Since mars receive less light from the Sun - It even looks smaller on Mars POV, implying greater distance - means the Heliocentric model is correct - Mars is farther away from the sun than the Earth - and their orbits too. And that automatically disproves (again and again) the flat earth model.

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2015, 12:38:04 AM »
Viewed from Mars, the sun is much farther away than the moon is from Earth. Since FE claim a sun as near as the moon, it is false. The sun that illuminates earth and mars is the same. Right, flat earthers? Anyone disagree?

When did you perform this experiment from Mars?  Oh, are you relying on what NASA says?  You do realize that they get caught lying quit often?

I asked you - as well as any flat earther - a simple question. You could had it answered, but you didn't. On purpose, perhaps.

Again: Is the Sun that illuminates the Earth the SAME Sun that illuminates our Moon, and that SAME Sun illuminates Mars? Yes, or no?

If not, what illuminates the Moon and/or Mars? Since they receive "light" from space, what could be the Source of their light, if not the same Sun that illuminates Earth?


Dodging the question (as you just did) is like saying you don't have a clue about what's being discussed here. And as so, any argument you defended automatically loses credibility...

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2015, 01:44:05 AM »
As I said, this is entirely relevant to this topic. Since mars receive less light from the Sun - It even looks smaller on Mars POV, implying greater distance - means the Heliocentric model is correct - Mars is farther away from the sun than the Earth - and their orbits too. And that automatically disproves (again and again) the flat earth model.
Not really. In heliocentric model Mars seen from Earth changes is angular size significantly. Taking average distances (149m and 227m from the Sun), when aligned, they are 78m km apart. When Mars is seen right above the horizon at midnight, it is 171m km away. This gives a bit more than double change in angular size. Something that would work pretty well for FE model.

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2015, 07:57:21 PM »
Also, can you guys keep your discussion about the Mars and other bodies, including ISS, fakery or random things and conspirancy theories unrelated to the topic off this thread? Start your own thread and talk about anything you wish to, and even go off-topic if you feel that is the best thing to do.

Mars is a linchpin here. Rovers on surface providing images and the fact that the same sun illuminates the Earth and Mars - and the Moon, too - is enough evidence to, again, refute the flat earth "theory": It proves the Sun's distance to Earth is much more than the Moon's. This refutes a thousand-kilometer distance between Earth and Sun.

As I said, this is entirely relevant to this topic. Since mars receive less light from the Sun - It even looks smaller on Mars POV, implying greater distance - means the Heliocentric model is correct - Mars is farther away from the sun than the Earth - and their orbits too. And that automatically disproves (again and again) the flat earth model.

Oh, yeah, all of the evidence.  Like, this picture of the curiosity rover on Mars.  Pretty cool picture, except for one thing; who took the picture?  Perhaps NASA forgot that little detail before they released it. 


Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2015, 10:25:37 PM »
Perhaps NASA forgot that little detail before they released it. 


Perhaps you, as the moderator, should stop making posts unrelated to the topic. Or you can explain to the average Reader how does the picture of Mars can help determining the distance from the surface of the Earth to the Sun?

The question asked in this topic remains unanswered for 2 weeks. Yet it is quite simple. I do now know how to measure the distance. Does anyone know how to do it?

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2015, 12:59:48 AM »
This is a composite picture ... and before you scream "fake" ... NASA, of course, provides the raw pictures too ... about 50 pictures are put together, taking the parts without robot arm in them from each.



The robot arm has a specific "selfie" routine for all the necessary positions, that was developed even before it was send to Mars.



Can we go back to the original topic now ...

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2015, 04:52:30 PM »
This is a composite picture ... and before you scream "fake" ... NASA, of course, provides the raw pictures too ... about 50 pictures are put together, taking the parts without robot arm in them from each.



The robot arm has a specific "selfie" routine for all the necessary positions, that was developed even before it was send to Mars.



Can we go back to the original topic now ...

Convenient how the NASA people put together that excuse when they were asked to explain the picture.  ::)

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Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2015, 04:57:30 PM »
Perhaps NASA forgot that little detail before they released it. 


Perhaps you, as the moderator, should stop making posts unrelated to the topic. Or you can explain to the average Reader how does the picture of Mars can help determining the distance from the surface of the Earth to the Sun?

The question asked in this topic remains unanswered for 2 weeks. Yet it is quite simple. I do now know how to measure the distance. Does anyone know how to do it?

I am not the one who changed the subject.  You and Kirk Johnson started talking about Mars missions.  I pointed out that NASA may be lying about Mars as well.  Why do you pretend that FE'ers are the ones changing the subject?  This sounds like a deceitful debate tactic, but it is one that can easily be defeated, much like the rest of your RET. 

Re: How far is Sun in FE model? Definitely more than 5000km.
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2015, 07:07:26 PM »
Convenient how the NASA people put together that excuse when they were asked to explain the picture.  ::)

Yeah. Very convenient that they acted as normal persons providing evidence when they were asked for it - unlike some people around here (You and other "FE belivahs")