If X then why Y?

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If X then why Y?
« on: January 15, 2015, 02:07:09 PM »
Hello Flatliners,
Imagine - if you will - that what the Round Earthers say is true. If the earth really was round, and there really was gravity, and we really did orbit the sun, and so on, then it would fit exactly with what we observe. There would be no need for a conspiracy. There would be an explanation for all the things you currently have no explanation for (and don't try to deny there are such things - if you do, you will be required to give an answer (that works) to my Turning Stars question.)
So given that there exists a simple model which explains everything we see and do in daily life, why do you reject it? There are no repeatable experiments that provide evidence of flatness over evidence of roundness. (If you want to disagree, you'll have to name one that does.)
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Pongo

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 07:28:31 PM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.

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kman

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 07:51:34 PM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.

If you take out the bits about the shape the earth, it's a nice little theological argument.
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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 07:37:56 AM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it.
Where did Neil mention a "man in the sky"?
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ausGeoff

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 10:31:05 AM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.

Q1.   Are you claiming that (round earth) science invokes "magic" as an explanation for all or only some earthly phenomena?

Q2.   Are you claiming that flat earthers would never invoke "magic" to rationalise their hypotheses?

Q3.   Does magic better describe a flat earth model or a round earth model?  And for either affirmative, please explain why exactly.

Q4.   Do you agree with this definition of magic:  "The art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature"?
 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:17:16 AM by ausGeoff »

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 10:31:42 AM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.

Oh dear, Pongo.
I'm afraid that rather than answer the question you are making an irrelevant statement that RE'ers are wrong to believe any theories that fit the observable evidence. That's off topic posting - give yourself a warning, please. It's also debate. Give yourself another warning.
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Vauxhall

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 10:34:44 AM »
So given that there exists a simple model which explains everything we see and do in daily life, why do you reject it?

Are you referring to Round Earth theory here? Because RET is anything but simple. FET is actually a lot simpler, and doesn't rely on made up forces and particles to work. Occam's Razor supports FET, not RET.

Before you start trying to make a philosophically deep argument, maybe learn a little about what you're talking about first.
Read the FAQS.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 10:41:54 AM »
and doesn't rely on made up forces
Well, apart from "bendy light", "universal acceleration", "atmospheric magnification", "aetheric wind" etc etc

That's before we get into the vast and nebulous Conspiracy (TM).
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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 10:45:58 AM »
FET is actually a lot simpler, and doesn't rely on made up forces and particles to work. Occam's Razor supports FET, not RET.

Some made up forces and particles from FET, without which it will not work:
Aether, denpressure, bendy light, Tom Bishop's magic intelligent photons, whatever force it is that holds the sun and moon up, the universal accelerator, moonshramps, the sky mirror, atmoplanic lensing, a huge conspiracy, the ice wall, celestial gears, and many more.

And is there any falsifiable observational or experimental evidence for a single one of these? No. Not a single one.

But what particles and forces does the "less simple" RET require to produce the effects observed by all the above? Prepare for a long list....
Light and gravity.

Who needs Occam's Razor when you have Vauxhall's Dustpan & Brush?  :P
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Vauxhall

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 10:46:07 AM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'. Acceleration is easily explainable, and you experience it every day. Are you trying to say that acceleration does not exist? If so, please support this outlandish claim.
Read the FAQS.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 10:53:05 AM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.
A man in the sky would not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.  With RET, I can explain why, and with the explanation, other things can be answered.  It has equations, methods, logic, etc. that allow one to answer other unasked questions.  With the man in the sky, I have to wait to notice something, then ask again and get basically the same answer.  If you are told about gravity etc., you can decide one day you want to calculate the escape velocity of a rocket.  The man in the sky can give no such answers, all he can say is "Because".  I learned that trick in first grade.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 11:04:30 AM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'. Acceleration is easily explainable, and you experience it every day. Are you trying to say that acceleration does not exist? If so, please support this outlandish claim.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen and Mademoiselles des Connaissances.
I am pompous, self-righteous, thin skinned, and smug.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 11:06:12 AM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'. Acceleration is easily explainable, and you experience it every day. Are you trying to say that acceleration does not exist? If so, please support this outlandish claim.

Acceleration isn't made up. "Universal Acceleration" is; it's an attempt to explain why objects fall to earth, it just doesn't do a particularly good job of it.

...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.
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Vauxhall

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 11:20:39 AM »
...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.

I don't see how. Universal Acceleration is a pretty solid model. If anything, UA has just as many unknowns as the theory of gravitation.
Read the FAQS.

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ausGeoff

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 11:23:57 AM »
Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'.

Yes it is; as applied to flat earth theory.  It's one of the more ludicrous tenets of the entire flat earth movement.  It just invokes some magical force to explain [sic] the inexplicable LOL.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 11:25:53 AM »
...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.

I don't see how. Universal Acceleration is a pretty solid model. If anything, UA has just as many unknowns as the theory of gravitation.

UA fails to explain variations in gravity as a function of latitude, altitude and local geology.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 11:26:02 AM »
Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

And miraculously crazy inventions come from the stuff they simply make up.



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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 11:30:17 AM »
...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.

I don't see how. Universal Acceleration is a pretty solid model. If anything, UA has just as many unknowns as the theory of gravitation.

What force causes the acceleration?
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Misero

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 12:33:06 PM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.
There is no such thing as infinite energy(As in, the AW), unless the 2nd law of thermodynamics is wrong? You have never seen said "Ice Wall", nor have you seen said "Atherial Winds". Therefore, they do not exist. See the logic? Hypocrisy is large on this site.
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Pongo

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 12:47:50 PM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'. Acceleration is easily explainable, and you experience it every day. Are you trying to say that acceleration does not exist? If so, please support this outlandish claim.


Are you trying to get a ban?  Stop debating and stop posting low-content sexy pictures in serious forums.

Also, there's a lot of debating here.  Be mindful of your posts.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 12:52:49 PM by Pongo »

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markjo

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 07:59:04 AM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'.
Correct.  Acceleration is not a force at all (made up or otherwise).  The force causing the acceleration is a different matter.
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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 08:50:12 AM »
"universal acceleration"

Are you slow? Universal Acceleration is not a 'made up force'. Acceleration is easily explainable, and you experience it every day. Are you trying to say that acceleration does not exist? If so, please support this outlandish claim.
Are you channeling jroa now?
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ausGeoff

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 09:25:58 PM »
Also, there's a lot of debating here.  Be mindful of your posts.

Could you please address my earlier questions directed to you Pongo?

Quote
Q1.   Are you claiming that (round earth) science invokes "magic" as an explanation for all or only some earthly phenomena?

Q2.   Are you claiming that flat earthers would never invoke "magic" to rationalise their hypotheses?

Q3.   Does magic better describe a flat earth model or a round earth model?  And for either affirmative, please explain why exactly.

Q4.   Do you agree with this definition of magic:  "The art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature"?

Thanks.

Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 11:19:28 PM »
...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.

I don't see how. Universal Acceleration is a pretty solid model. If anything, UA has just as many unknowns as the theory of gravitation.

What force causes the acceleration?

Answer the question please.
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Rama Set

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 08:28:02 AM »

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.

Of course you inject magic.  There is a host of Ad Hoc explanantions in FET that have not been observed, and cannot be measured in any meaningful way.  The Shadow Object, UA and it's mechanism, Electromagnetic Acceleration, etc...

In fact, all of these concepts are not as substantial as gravity (I won't include Dark Matter or String Theory, as they are only hypotheses at this point), which has a rigorous mathematical formulation as well as piles of experimental evidence which indicate that reality behaves according to the mathematical formulation.

Your comparison is, at best, inept and at worst, dishonest.
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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2015, 07:25:15 AM »
...yeah, the implied facepalm is probably a better response.

I don't see how. Universal Acceleration is a pretty solid model. If anything, UA has just as many unknowns as the theory of gravitation.

What force causes the acceleration?

What force is making the RE universe expand when gravity should be pulling galaxies together?  We don't have every answer, just like your RE scientists do not.

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Orifiel

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2015, 01:06:41 PM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.


Q4.   Do you agree with this definition of magic:  "The art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature"?

When I order Chinese food and have to use an incantation of multiple cursewords asking as to why they don't speak English, and they show up with my Hunan beef like as soon as I put down the phone, is that magic? Am I sorcerer?

OT: Flatearthers, when presented with evidence, just say your evidence is wrong. That's all. They don't care about thinking at a problem from other angles, or even logically. All that matters is that they're right. That they're more intelligent than the average person. That their beliefs (iWitness) are true.
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kman

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2015, 07:51:58 PM »
Suppose I told you that every question can be answered by saying a magical man in the sky did it. Every question would have a nice complete answer and everyone would have that nice warm fuzzy feeling inside; the feeling of knowing that they know everything.

The only problem is that it wouldn't be true would it?  We could accept round-earth answers and simply explain away everything by saying magic. Sure science sexes up the word magic by calling it gravity, dark matter, string theory, or other similar terms, but in the end they don't know so they simply make something up. 

We care about truth and have no need to inject magic just to get that warm fuzzy feeling.


Q4.   Do you agree with this definition of magic:  "The art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature"?

When I order Chinese food and have to use an incantation of multiple cursewords asking as to why they don't speak English, and they show up with my Hunan beef like as soon as I put down the phone, is that magic? Am I sorcerer?

OT: Flatearthers, when presented with evidence, just say your evidence is wrong. That's all. They don't care about thinking at a problem from other angles, or even logically. All that matters is that they're right. That they're more intelligent than the average person. That their beliefs (iWitness) are true.

I don't think ordering takeout presumes a control of "unnatural agencies or the forces of nature"
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Orifiel

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2015, 02:42:31 PM »

I don't think ordering takeout presumes a control of "unnatural agencies or the forces of nature"

Dude, they get there supernaturally fast  :P
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kman

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Re: If X then why Y?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2015, 04:15:41 PM »

I don't think ordering takeout presumes a control of "unnatural agencies or the forces of nature"

Dude, they get there supernaturally fast  :P

And the food gives you supernatural indigestion...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 04:18:06 PM by kman »
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[USA TODAY and NPR] are probaley just a bunch of flippin wite sapremist websites you RASCIST
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