I won Heiwa's €1,000,000 challenge

Quote from: Heiwa on September 03, 2015, 01:26:46 PM

Hm. The tip of a finger is no hand. And dip? A dip should last at least 10 seconds. You live in a fantasy world!

A finger is part of a hand.  Also, who says that a dip needs to last at least 10 seconds?

In any case, my point still stands.  That is a very effective way of cooling things.

But a hand is not a finger. You talk nonsense all the time. And a dip is a quick bath or swim and it lasts more than 10 seconds.

Topic was spaceship re-entry from space. And you suggest an effective way of cooling it is to dip it in water!! But there is no water or clouds at between 100 000 and 50 000 m altitude where re-entry is supposed to take place. There is nothing to cool things down up there. Only molecules that heat up the very fast moving spaceship and meteorites colliding with them.

Test yourself. Accelerate your spaceship to 10 000 m/s speed and dip into the atmosphere anywhere in order to slow down again and land. You heat up! There is nothing to cool you down. And after a very short time you are vaporized. I assure you.

Juri Gagarin suggesting he dipped into the atmosphere at >8 000 m/s speed 1961 with his 2000 kg steel ball and stopped so he could eject was simply just making it up. Typical commie style.

Are you a communist, too?

Test yourself. Accelerate your spaceship to 10 000 m/s speed and dip into the atmosphere anywhere in order to slow down again and land. You heat up! There is nothing to cool you down. And after a very short time you are vaporized. I assure you.

Do you know why animals sweat?  Because the process of evaporation is a good way of shedding excess heat.  Think of ablative heat shields as a space capsule's way of sweating.

But a hand is not a finger. You talk nonsense all the time. And a dip is a quick bath or swim and it lasts more than 10 seconds.

Irrelevant.

Also, I took the liberty of looking up the definition of "dip" and being in 10 seconds is not a requirement.  The definition I was using is "to put or let something down quickly or briefly in or into (liquid)" which is certainly what that guy did.

Topic was spaceship re-entry from space. And you suggest an effective way of cooling it is to dip it in water!! But there is no water or clouds at between 100 000 and 50 000 m altitude where re-entry is supposed to take place. There is nothing to cool things down up there. Only molecules that heat up the very fast moving spaceship and meteorites colliding with them.

[...]

No, I am suggesting that the space craft have a heat shield that serves the same purpose as the water.  Imagine how long he could have his finger in the lead if he had a 5 inch thick layer of water, and now keep in mind that a space craft has a heat shield even thicker then that and it only needs to survive a few minutes of reentry.

No, I am suggesting that the space craft have a heat shield that serves the same purpose as the water.  Imagine how long he could have his finger in the lead if he had a 5 inch thick layer of water, and now keep in mind that a space craft has a heat shield even thicker then that and it only needs to survive a few minutes of reentry.

I know. But the heat shield is just a communist propaganda ploy invented by Juri Gagarin, Hero of the Sovietunion, 1961, which I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm . It is no way that it works. Are you a communist, too?

Quote from: mikeman7918 on September 03, 2015, 05:38:23 PM

No, I am suggesting that the space craft have a heat shield that serves the same purpose as the water.  Imagine how long he could have his finger in the lead if he had a 5 inch thick layer of water, and now keep in mind that a space craft has a heat shield even thicker then that and it only needs to survive a few minutes of reentry.

I know. But the heat shield is just a communist propaganda ploy invented by Juri Gagarin, Hero of the Sovietunion, 1961, which I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm . It is no way that it works. Are you a communist, too?

Can you link to an independent source that can prove that heat shields do not work?

Quote from: mikeman7918 on August 16, 2015, 09:38:52 AM

In short, faking space travel is about as possible as faking air travel.  If you disagree with anything I said feel free to try to debunk it.

You are off topic, loser of my Challenge, and faking space travel is very easy. 

You just send up a rocket into the sky, where it disappears behind a cloud and then you say it went to the Moon. After a week the rocket comes back to planet Earth and you repeat that it has visited the Moon. And then you show some photos, etc.

Plenty people believe such nonsense.

My € 1 000 000:- Challenge is just to explain how the rocket did it; fuel used, forces applied for the maneuvres, etc, etc.

So far there is no winner! Only losers.

18 Days. I was wondering how long it would take for Anders to start jumping up and down again.

18 Days, it seems.

I know. But the heat shield is just a communist propaganda ploy invented by Juri Gagarin, Hero of the Sovietunion, 1961, which I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm . It is no way that it works. Are you a communist, too?

So ablative cooling magically stops working in the upper atmosphere?  Citation badly needed.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 03, 2015, 10:05:51 PM

I know. But the heat shield is just a communist propaganda ploy invented by Juri Gagarin, Hero of the Sovietunion, 1961, which I explain at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm . It is no way that it works. Are you a communist, too?

So ablative cooling magically stops working in the upper atmosphere?  Citation badly needed.

You better ask the team that sent Juri Gagarin in LEO 1961 about how it worked then. As I understand it there is no cooling at all when a spaceship/heat shield collides at high speed with the molecules of the atmospehere at high altitudes. Spaceship/heat shield just goes up in smoke. Ablative cooling does not work anywhere. It is just NASA pseudoscientic fiction nonsense invented by Buzz Aldrin.

Like your hand being dipped into molten lead, video of which we are still looking forward to see with interest. Why do you invent things like that? 

You better ask the team that sent Juri Gagarin in LEO 1961 about how it worked then. As I understand it there is no cooling at all when a spaceship/heat shield collides at high speed with the molecules of the atmospehere at high altitudes. Spaceship/heat shield just goes up in smoke.

Like your hand being dipped into molten lead, video of which we are still looking forward to see with interest.

The cooling in shear shield is ablative cooling which means that heated material lets off taking the heat with it.  It is an incredibly effective way of cooling things and that's why they use it for reentry.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 08:33:48 AM

You better ask the team that sent Juri Gagarin in LEO 1961 about how it worked then. As I understand it there is no cooling at all when a spaceship/heat shield collides at high speed with the molecules of the atmospehere at high altitudes. Spaceship/heat shield just goes up in smoke.

Like your hand being dipped into molten lead, video of which we are still looking forward to see with interest.

The cooling in shear shield is ablative cooling which means that heated material lets off taking the heat with it.  It is an incredibly effective way of cooling things and that's why they use it for reentry.

Yes, this nonsense was invented by US astronut and hero Buzz Aldrin. But it doesn't work. There is no evidence anywhere that it works. It is just incredible but it does not cool anything. The heat shield is just heated up until it melts, then gazifies and catches fire. There is no cooling at all. No wonder that Buzz is an alcholic wreck today.

Only brainwashed twerps, communists and terrorists believe that the molten material of a heat shield flies away with the heat leaving the rest cool and intact.

Yes, this nonsense was invented by US astronut and hero Buzz Aldrin. But it doesn't work. There is no evidence anywhere that it works. It is just incredible but it does not cool anything. The heat shield is just heated up until it melts, then gazifies and catches fire. There is no cooling at all. No wonder that Buzz is an alcholic wreck today.

Only brainwashed twerps, communists and terrorists believe that the molten material of a heat shield flies away with the heat leaving the rest cool and intact.

You are right in that the heat shield melts, and the time spent melting the heat shield is time that's not spent melting the ship.

So Heiwa: according to your "expertise" would a ship with a heat shield survive longer then a ship without a heat shield while reentering the atmosphere?  Please just answer the first time so we can skip me asking it many times in large red text.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 08:53:37 AM

Yes, this nonsense was invented by US astronut and hero Buzz Aldrin. But it doesn't work. There is no evidence anywhere that it works. It is just incredible but it does not cool anything. The heat shield is just heated up until it melts, then gazifies and catches fire. There is no cooling at all. No wonder that Buzz is an alcholic wreck today.

Only brainwashed twerps, communists and terrorists believe that the molten material of a heat shield flies away with the heat leaving the rest cool and intact.

You are right in that the heat shield melts, and the time spent melting the heat shield is time that's not spent melting the ship.

So Heiwa: according to your "expertise" would a ship with a heat shield survive longer then a ship without a heat shield while reentering the atmosphere?  Please just answer the first time so we can skip me asking it many times in large red text.

That is an easy question. Any spaceship trying to reenter Earth from space, i.e. try to land on Earth, will be destroyed by the heat generated in the attempt. The speed is too high and there is no means to brake (slow down). The heat is generated by the spaceship colliding at enormous speed with the few molecules in the upper atmosphere. Same thing destroys all meteorites. It means that any human space travel is impossible. It means that all US manned spaceships; Apollos, Shuttles, capsules of all kind are fake since the 1960's. Only sending satellites up into space is possible. You cannot ever retrieve a satellite with a reentry. That is why I am a happy shareholder of Airbus NV building Arianne rockets sending satellites oneway into space.

Now, what about the video of you dipping your hand in molten lead. When will you provide it?

That is an easy question. Any spaceship trying to reenter Earth from space, i.e. try to land on Earth, will be destroyed by the heat generated in the attempt. The speed is too high and there is no means to brake (slow down). The heat is generated by the spaceship colliding at enormous speed with the few molecules in the upper atmosphere. Same thing destroys all meteorites. It means that any human space travel is impossible. It means that all US manned spaceships; Apollos, Shuttles, capsules of all kind are fake since the 1960's. Only sending satellites up into space is possible. You cannot ever retrieve a satellite with a reentry. That is why I am a happy shareholder of Airbus NV building Arianne rockets sending satellites oneway into space.

Now, what about the video of you dipping your hand in molten lead. When will you provide it?

You didn't answer my question.  I will make it multiple choice to make it easier for you.

Which would survive reentry for longer: a ship with a heat shield or a ship without one?

a): The ship with the heat shield will survive for longer
b): The ship without the heat shield will survive for longer
c): Both ships will survive for the exact same amount of time

Please just choose an answer and stop evading.

You better ask the team that sent Juri Gagarin in LEO 1961 about how it worked then. As I understand it there is no cooling at all when a spaceship/heat shield collides at high speed with the molecules of the atmospehere at high altitudes.

Then you don't understand ablative cooling correctly.

Spaceship/heat shield just goes up in smoke. Ablative cooling does not work anywhere.

Actually, that's exactly how ablative cooling works.  As the heat shield melts/burns away, it takes a lot of the heat energy away with the smoke.  Is this a concept that you honestly can't grasp?

It is just NASA pseudoscientic fiction nonsense invented by Buzz Aldrin.

A few posts ago you said that Juri Gagarin invented it in 1961.  Make up your mind, will you?

Also, you may want to look a little closer at how ablation works and some of its applications:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablation
http://www.thermopedia.com/content/285/
http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1961/ASDTR61-322article49.pdf

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 11:41:55 AM

That is an easy question. Any spaceship trying to reenter Earth from space, i.e. try to land on Earth, will be destroyed by the heat generated in the attempt. The speed is too high and there is no means to brake (slow down). The heat is generated by the spaceship colliding at enormous speed with the few molecules in the upper atmosphere. Same thing destroys all meteorites. It means that any human space travel is impossible. It means that all US manned spaceships; Apollos, Shuttles, capsules of all kind are fake since the 1960's. Only sending satellites up into space is possible. You cannot ever retrieve a satellite with a reentry. That is why I am a happy shareholder of Airbus NV building Arianne rockets sending satellites oneway into space.

Now, what about the video of you dipping your hand in molten lead. When will you provide it?

You didn't answer my question.  I will make it multiple choice to make it easier for you.

Which would survive reentry for longer: a ship with a heat shield or a ship without one?

a): The ship with the heat shield will survive for longer
b): The ship without the heat shield will survive for longer
c): Both ships will survive for the exact same amount of time

Please just choose an answer and stop evading.

A heat shield does not make any difference at all and no spaceship will survive any attempt of reentry. I thought it was clear from earlier replies.

How is your hand? I am still awaiting your dip it in the lead video?

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 08:33:48 AM

You better ask the team that sent Juri Gagarin in LEO 1961 about how it worked then. As I understand it there is no cooling at all when a spaceship/heat shield collides at high speed with the molecules of the atmospehere at high altitudes.

Then you don't understand ablative cooling correctly.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 08:33:48 AM

Spaceship/heat shield just goes up in smoke. Ablative cooling does not work anywhere.

Actually, that's exactly how ablative cooling works.  As the heat shield melts/burns away, it takes a lot of the heat energy away with the smoke.  Is this a concept that you honestly can't grasp?

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 08:33:48 AM

It is just NASA pseudoscientic fiction nonsense invented by Buzz Aldrin.

A few posts ago you said that Juri Gagarin invented it in 1961.  Make up your mind, will you?

Also, you may want to look a little closer at how ablation works and some of its applications:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablation
http://www.thermopedia.com/content/285/
http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1961/ASDTR61-322article49.pdf

I know what ablation is, e.g. when used by anti-fouling paints on ships. But on so called heat shields it doesn't work. The heat shield just melts and then the whole spaceship is vaporized at reentry.
Juri Gagarin in his canon ball is said to have used some sort of protection to enable reentry 1961. I describe it at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel.htm . But it was and still is stupid, ridiculous communist propaganda.
Are you a communist too. Apart from being generally brainwashed?

A heat shield does not make any difference at all and no spaceship will survive any attempt of reentry. I thought it was clear from earlier replies.

How is your hand? I am still awaiting your dip it in the lead video?

So...  You are saying that a pebble will take the same amount of time to burn up as a boulder...  Do you think that melting a pebble takes just as much energy as melting a boulder?

I don't plan on dipping my hand in lead any time soon by the way, I just said that it's possible.  I already gave you the video so stop derailing.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 05:48:34 PM

A heat shield does not make any difference at all and no spaceship will survive any attempt of reentry. I thought it was clear from earlier replies.

How is your hand? I am still awaiting your dip it in the lead video?

So...  You are saying that a pebble will take the same amount of time to burn up as a boulder...  Do you think that melting a pebble takes just as much energy as melting a boulder?

I don't plan on dipping my hand in lead any time soon by the way, I just said that it's possible.  I already gave you the video so stop derailing.

A spaceship is not a pebble or a boulder or a solid meteorite. A spaceship is a human built structure of very thin plates and stiffeners - like an airplane - full of air. Airplanes are built to fly at say <300 m/s but spaceships fly at >8 000 m/s which is a little different. It works in vaccum space but not in the upper atmosphere where meteorites are destroyed trying to hit Earth. Same happens much quicker to any spaceship trying to reenter. I have explained why at my website. They all heat up, catch fire and melt. There is no way to return I am happy to say. There is no reason at all for humans to travel in space. It is much better done by robots. But plenty people make money with fake human space travel illusions.
 
All 'scientific' papers about ablative heatshield since 1960 like http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1961/ASDTR61-322article49.pdf are nonsense. It has never been fully explained or tested in a laboratory, etc. The persons inventing and writing such nonsense and attending such silly conferences are all paid actors - most military. It is show biz! Like your hand in the lead.

When you grew up you will probably understand.

A spaceship is not a pebble or a boulder or a solid meteorite. A spaceship is a human built structure of very thin plates and stiffeners - like an airplane - full of air. Airplanes are built to fly at say <300 m/s but spaceships fly at >8 000 m/s which is a little different. It works in vaccum space but not in the upper atmosphere where meteorites are destroyed trying to hit Earth. Same happens much quicker to any spaceship trying to reenter. I have explained why at my website. They all heat up, catch fire and melt. There is no way to return I am happy to say. There is no reason at all for humans to travel in space. It is much better done by robots. But plenty people make money with fake human space travel illusions.
 
All 'scientific' papers about ablative heatshield since 1960 like http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1961/ASDTR61-322article49.pdf are nonsense. It has never been fully explained or tested in a laboratory, etc. The persons inventing and writing such nonsense and attending such silly conferences are all paid actors - most military. It is show biz! Like your hand in the lead.

When you grew up you will probably understand.

I understand that you (falsely) believe that all meteors burn up in reentry, but that was not my question.  I specifically asked you about how long it would take for something to burn up.  Would a space ship with a heat shield last longer then a space ship without one?  If a ship has a heat shield then the atmosphere needs to burn through the heat shield before it can get to the ship, so if the answer is no then you will need to explain what physical mechanism destroys the ship faster if it has a heat shield.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 10:19:25 PM

A spaceship is not a pebble or a boulder or a solid meteorite. A spaceship is a human built structure of very thin plates and stiffeners - like an airplane - full of air. Airplanes are built to fly at say <300 m/s but spaceships fly at >8 000 m/s which is a little different. It works in vaccum space but not in the upper atmosphere where meteorites are destroyed trying to hit Earth. Same happens much quicker to any spaceship trying to reenter. I have explained why at my website. They all heat up, catch fire and melt. There is no way to return I am happy to say. There is no reason at all for humans to travel in space. It is much better done by robots. But plenty people make money with fake human space travel illusions.
 
All 'scientific' papers about ablative heatshield since 1960 like http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1961/ASDTR61-322article49.pdf are nonsense. It has never been fully explained or tested in a laboratory, etc. The persons inventing and writing such nonsense and attending such silly conferences are all paid actors - most military. It is show biz! Like your hand in the lead.

When you grew up you will probably understand.

I understand that you (falsely) believe that all meteors burn up in reentry, but that was not my question.  I specifically asked you about how long it would take for something to burn up.  Would a space ship with a heat shield last longer then a space ship without one?  If a ship has a heat shield then the atmosphere needs to burn through the heat shield before it can get to the ship, so if the answer is no then you will need to explain what physical mechanism destroys the ship faster if it has a heat shield.

You find the answer at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm#EV17 . I assume it will take less than a minute for your spaceship to be vaporized. It seems the heat shield will not slow you down at all and that is one reason that Apollo 11 was a hoax. But it took place before you were born so you are just a victim of propaganda taught at school.

You find the answer at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm#EV17 . I assume it will take less than a minute for your spaceship to be vaporized. It seems the heat shield will not slow you down at all and that is one reason that Apollo 11 was a hoax. But it took place before you were born so you are just a victim of propaganda taught at school.

Heiwa, this is a diagram from your website:



In reentry the reason it gets hot is because the air compresses and heats up, but the diagram shows that behind the ship the air is decompressed and is therefore very cold.  The only place the heat exists is the heat shield.  It takes time to burn through the heat shield and once it does that it can get to the ship and burn it.

In a fire what burns faster, a huge log or a twig?  What cooks faster, a large turkey or a small steak?  The same logic should apply to reentry and if you don't think so then please demonstrate how you think the laws of physics change in the upper atmosphere.

I know what ablation is, e.g. when used by anti-fouling paints on ships. But on so called heat shields it doesn't work. The heat shield just melts and then the whole spaceship is vaporized at reentry.

Do you understand the concept of latent heat as it relates to material phase changes?  In other words, do you understand that some materials require a great deal of heat energy in order to melt and/or vaporize?  Did you also understand that most of this heat energy is carried away with the material as it melts an/or vaporizes?

Heiwa, I ask you again since you never answered my question:

Do you know what the word finite means?

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 11:58:07 PM

You find the answer at http://heiwaco.com/moontravel1.htm#EV17 . I assume it will take less than a minute for your spaceship to be vaporized. It seems the heat shield will not slow you down at all and that is one reason that Apollo 11 was a hoax. But it took place before you were born so you are just a victim of propaganda taught at school.

Heiwa, this is a diagram from your website:



In reentry the reason it gets hot is because the air compresses and heats up, but the diagram shows that behind the ship the air is decompressed and is therefore very cold.  The only place the heat exists is the heat shield.  It takes time to burn through the heat shield and once it does that it can get to the ship and burn it.

In a fire what burns faster, a huge log or a twig?  What cooks faster, a large turkey or a small steak?  The same logic should apply to reentry and if you don't think so then please demonstrate how you think the laws of physics change in the upper atmosphere.

Hm, the figure is the pressure distribution of a spaceship/module at subsonic speed <330 m/s at high air density (measured in a water tube) at the very end of a reentry (at low altitude) that no spaceship/module ever can arrive at. The spaceship is already vaporized when the speed is >10 000 m/s at 50 000 - 100 000 m altitude.

I included the figures only to show the turbulence behind the spaceship/module that will unbalance it, so it starts to rotate, etc.

Quote from: Heiwa on September 04, 2015, 05:55:30 PM

I know what ablation is, e.g. when used by anti-fouling paints on ships. But on so called heat shields it doesn't work. The heat shield just melts and then the whole spaceship is vaporized at reentry.

Do you understand the concept of latent heat as it relates to material phase changes?  In other words, do you understand that some materials require a great deal of heat energy in order to melt and/or vaporize?  Did you also understand that most of this heat energy is carried away with the material as it melts an/or vaporizes?

Yes, as I show in my analysis the total kinetic/potential energy of the spaceship is sufficent to heat up the heatshield to >20 000°C so disappears as vapour very early at the reentry ... like the whole spaceship itself.
The heat cannot be carried away by anything else than the bits and pieces of the spaceship being vaporized.

Heiwa, I ask you again since you never answered my question:

Do you know what the word finite means?

Yes of course. Limited, having bounds. Finite elements methods, FEM, I have used since 1970 to design ships.

Quote from: Master_Evar on September 05, 2015, 01:02:32 PM

Heiwa, I ask you again since you never answered my question:

Do you know what the word finite means?

Yes of course. Limited, having bounds. Finite elements methods, FEM, I have used since 1970 to design ships.

And you agree that during a reentry, a finite amount of heat is generated?

Quote from: Heiwa on September 05, 2015, 01:17:18 PM

Quote from: Master_Evar on September 05, 2015, 01:02:32 PM

Heiwa, I ask you again since you never answered my question:

Do you know what the word finite means?

Yes of course. Limited, having bounds. Finite elements methods, FEM, I have used since 1970 to design ships.

And you agree that during a reentry, a finite amount of heat is generated?

No! At reentry - a spaceship trying to land - there is no way to reduce speed so you just go faster and faster, while your spaceship collides with the molecules in the upper atmosphere. When this occurs the spaceship is destroyed, vaporized. It is probably a combination of pressure and thermic loads on the spaceship structure but also chemical reactions at the surface of the spaceship. I describe it at my website. There is no real friction!
The matter is little researched and NASA does not assist apart from its standard SF propaganda fantasies = it is just a question of heat solved by a heat shield.

Quote from: Master_Evar on September 05, 2015, 01:21:34 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on September 05, 2015, 01:17:18 PM

Quote from: Master_Evar on September 05, 2015, 01:02:32 PM

Heiwa, I ask you again since you never answered my question:

Do you know what the word finite means?

Yes of course. Limited, having bounds. Finite elements methods, FEM, I have used since 1970 to design ships.

And you agree that during a reentry, a finite amount of heat is generated?

No! At reentry - a spaceship trying to land - there is no way to reduce speed so you just go faster and faster, while your spaceship collides with the molecules in the upper atmosphere. When this occurs the spaceship is destroyed, vaporized. It is probably a combination of pressure and thermic loads on the spaceship structure but also chemical reactions at the surface of the spaceship. I describe it at my website. There is no real friction!
The matter is little researched and NASA does not assist apart from its standard SF propaganda fantasies = it is just a question of heat solved by a heat shield.

You did not answer to the question I asked.

Do you agree that there is only a finite amount of heat generated during a reentry?

He said "No."  Are you going to claim he did not answer you 20 more times?  Is your tactic to just bore every to death and then claim victory?