Gyroscopes make FE impossible

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momentia

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Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« on: September 24, 2011, 11:34:43 AM »
Gyroscopes demonstrate both the rotation and the shape of the earth.

Free rotating gyroscopes will conserve angular momentum and always point in the same direction. If you spin up a free rotating gyroscope and point it straight up, you can determine that the earth is rotating, and the angle shown below, or the angle between the angular momentum of the earth and the angular momentum of the gyroscope.

If the earth were flat (rotating or non-rotating), a gyroscope pointed up would always point up. However this is not the case. In fact, the angle between the earth's angular momentum vector and the gyroscope's angular momentum vector is the latitude at which the gyroscope is located. This means that the earths surface is tilted by (90-latitude) degrees from the axis of rotation, which can only occur for a round earth.

The angle I'm talking about is Φ in the below diagram if the z axis is the axis of earth's rotation, and the vector shown is the gyroscope's axis of rotation.


Here's one of many experiments that confirms that the gyroscope procession depends on latitude.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921452600007535

And you can't blame the procession on mystically torque from the stars either. There are other ways of detecting small rotations. In particular, the sagnac effect: a laser gets split and one beam goes around a circle and interferes with itself. If the ring is spinning around an axis perpendicular to the plane, the laser will be out of sync with itself upon recombination, which can be interpreted as a certain rotational velocity around the axis perpendicular to the loop.

The equation relating the rotational velocity of the earth, wavelength of laser, area of the loop, and perimeter of the loop can be found on the following page:
http://www.fs.wettzell.de/LKREISEL/G/LaserGyros.html
In the top equation, n dot omega is related to latitude as is shown in the lower equation.

This is from a lab that very accurately measures the rotation of the earth.

Here's some more types of experiments measuring the rotation of the earth using inertial frames:
http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v78/i19/p3602_1
http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v78/i11/p2046_1

Using the fact that the earth is rotating is also the basis for the gyrocompass:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass

None of this is remotely possible on a flat earth.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 11:36:26 AM by momentia »

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2011, 07:43:33 PM »
Wow, thats actually something I never thought about. Very nice!  :D
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 12:52:50 AM »
And you believe those lying scientific facts?  Don't you know that all of the scientists work for the satanic NASA?  They spin those numbers how ever they choose and you just blindly believe them.  Why, if we flat earthers had even a faction of the amount of PHDs crunching numbers for us, then we would be able to show proof too.  But, alas, Billy Bob is not as good with a calculator as he is with an Etch A Sketch.  So, as soon as we figure out this "Mathematics Thing", we will be able to show proof as well.  Just you wait, one of our members is about to graduate from High School and then you will be sorry.  You don't have to be a satanic scientist working for NASA in order to crunch numbers.  But, apparently it helps. 

And that, my friend, proves that the Earth is flat.

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 02:14:22 AM »
The gyroscope is one of the least reliable devices known to man. I don't know why you would present this as evidence of a round earth other than trying to drown us in nonsense and dazzle us with barely relevant links.
The gyroscope rotates for the same reason the Foucault pendulum rotates.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 03:03:50 AM »
I am not a pilot, but I was under the assumption that gyroscopic compasses are actually very accurate.  Do you have any evidence for your claim?

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momentia

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »
The gyroscope is one of the least reliable devices known to man. I don't know why you would present this as evidence of a round earth other than trying to drown us in nonsense and dazzle us with barely relevant links.
The gyroscope rotates for the same reason the Foucault pendulum rotates.

Sure, if you really want to believe that gyroscopes are unreliable, I can't help you much. I see no evidence for this. I would invite you to read the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrotheodolite

It basically says that surveyors use gyroscopes to determine the location of north by supplying resisting torque to procession until the gyroscope settles in one direction without processional torque, parallel to the axis of the earth's rotation. These are often used in tunneling, notably in the chunnel.

If you really want to believe that stars/other celestial bodies produce torque on gyroscopes, I'd like to see some evidence.

But I really want to talk about the sagnac effect, which is the basis of of the last three papers, where each one uses a different type of wave to measure rotation. (lasers, atomic waves, waves in a superfluid)

I will focus on fibre optic gyroscopes/ring laser gyroscopes, as these are simple, obtainable(FOG's are), and easy to understand. Basically, a laser is fired through a half-silvered mirror. Half the light goes one way around a large coiled loop, and half the light goes the other way. They are then recombined and interfered. Due to rotation, after the light goes through in either direction, the wavelength of light will be slightly shifted for each direction. This will establish a beat frequency on the detector which is proportional to the angular velocity of the ring. The same equation holds for a ring laser as a fiber optic gyroscope (they are very similar):



δf beat frequency
A enclosed area
P perimeter (beam path length)
λ optical wavelength
n normal vector to A
Ω rotation vector
Source: http://www.fs.wettzell.de/LKREISEL/G/LaserGyros.html

n (dot) Ω = Ωsin(Ɵ), where Ɵ is shown as below with Ω being on the z axis, and n being the demonstrated vector:


There is a demonstrable way to determine Ɵ from knowing δf, A, P, λ, and Ω (the magnitude of the angular momentum vector of the earth).

And Ɵ happens to more or less be the latitude, with a small correction factor due to the earth not being a perfect sphere. There is similarly a correction term for east west.

Source: http://www.fs.wettzell.de/LKREISEL/G/LaserGyros.html

If the earth were flat, even if the flat earth were rotating, Ɵ would not be dependent on latitude, it would be always π/2, so n (dot) Ω would always be Ω, which is not the case.

Note that this is a very accurate way of measuring rotation rates and has nothing to do with the principle of a regular spinning gyroscope, yet it too demonstrates that the earth rotates, and that latitude is the dominant factor in determining the angle of the "up unit vector" to of the earth's axis of rotation.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 09:25:07 AM by momentia »

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 11:33:32 AM »
Sure, if you really want to believe that gyroscopes are unreliable, I can't help you much. I see no evidence for this.

You must be joking. You have clearly never navigated by gyrocompass.


When a ship is at sea, the navigator should determine the gyrocompass error at least once a day; this is required of naval vessels and is desirable on any ship. Over and above this bare minimum the prudent navigator will take advantage of every opportunity to check the accuracy of his gyro. The importance of so doing is emphasized by a grounding case on record where the failure of a ship's gyro went undetected for a period of over twelve hours, with the result that at the time of grounding the vessel was over 110deg off course and more than 200 miles out of position.

Pilots constantly adjust the gyro, or it must be slaved to another system. It is damned near useless in practical terms, never mind your beautifully ideal theories.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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momentia

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2011, 01:34:03 PM »
You must be joking. You have clearly never navigated by gyrocompass.
Darn, you caught me. No I have not. I doubt you have either.

Quote
Pilots constantly adjust the gyro, or it must be slaved to another system. It is damned near useless in practical terms, never mind your beautifully ideal theories.

I guess thats why the navy uses them:

Quote from: Dutton's Nautical Navigation
To take the gyrocompass from the theoretical to the practical, other correctives must be employe. Latitude for example affects the operation of the compass in ways that require compensation, and environmental factors cause other problems that must be considered and corrected. But all of these problems are surmountable, and the modern gyrocompass has become an extremely valuable asset for those who can afford them. The high cost of these devices make them impractical for many small craft, but they are standard equipment on many commercial and virtually all naval ships.

Just because they need to be monitored doesn't mean they aren't useful. Note that the author is only talking about mechanical gyrocompasses (the ones with flywheels).

ANYWAYS, I'd really like to talk about Ring laser/fibre optic gyroscopes, which rely on a completely different theory than mechanical gyroscopes. I explain the principle in brief above, and you can search for more info. They are now replacing the older mechanical gyroscopes in many applications, particularly inertial guidance systems in ships and planes.

These gyros are much more accurate, sensitive, and are less prone to error. And they demonstrate the impossibility of a flat earth, as I showed in my last post. I would like to hear your argument against these.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 01:38:09 PM by momentia »

Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2011, 01:49:53 PM »
I love how all threads end up at a point where it gets into such high level science that neither person fully understands it why don't we look at what the people who really understand the science oh yeah scientists think 100% of the national academy of sciences think the earth is round i think they know a little more about the subjects than all of us do.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2011, 03:32:14 PM »
I love how all threads end up at a point where it gets into such high level science

Unless you were not aware, physics are pretty high level science. You don't discuss the fundamental ways the world works by talking about biology.

that neither person fully understands it

Justify this statement. Just because you often have no clue what is going on, does not mean nobody else does.

why don't we look at what the people who really understand the science oh yeah scientists think 100% of the national academy of sciences think the earth is round i think they know a little more about the subjects than all of us do.

Sorry we will not dumb down our explanations for you. If it is too difficult for you, I suggest you follow this link.

Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 03:36:45 PM »
i am not asserting that the science is too high level i was merely commenting on the irony that none of you are physicicst and yet claim to know the physics better than real physicists and scientists.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 03:58:25 PM »
none of you are physicicst

Justify this statement. Do you personally know any of us? Do you know about any of our careers? Considering how little time you have spent here, I doubt so.

We have physicists and engineers alike that spend time here. A few months ago we even had a guy that was working at a collider, and provided pictures and info of his employment to prove so.


Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2011, 04:01:46 PM »
hmmm let me see none of you on this thread are???? so there asshole

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Tausami

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 04:05:21 PM »
hmmm let me see none of you on this thread are???? so there asshole

Does marine biologist with a background in chemistry and physics (also access to Google and Wikipedia) count?

Quote
Unless you were not aware, physics are pretty high level science. You don't discuss the fundamental ways the world works by talking about biology.

 >:(
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 05:09:17 PM by Tausami »

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 04:06:26 PM »
hmmm let me see none of you on this thread are????

Justify this statement. Do you personally know any of us? Do you know about any of our careers? Considering how little time you have spent here, I doubt so.

It is also due to note that vulgar language is against the rules.

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momentia

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 09:09:17 PM »
I love how all threads end up at a point where it gets into such high level science that neither person fully understands it why don't we look at what the people who really understand the science oh yeah scientists think 100% of the national academy of sciences think the earth is round i think they know a little more about the subjects than all of us do.

Excellent derailing, but if you don't mind, I'd like to stay on topic. If you can't understand some basic physics (this derivation for the beat frequency due to the sagnac effect is simple, especially when considering a circular ring), you probably shouldn't be part of the thread.

Look at my second to last post for more details of the optical gyroscopes, and their relation to the shape of the earth. Understand that they rely on a completely different principle than mechanical gyroscopes, and thus are not subject to the same types of potential error.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=50860.msg1247719#msg1247719

I want to know why the operation of gyroscopes, in particular laser ring/fibre optic gyroscopes, only agree with a round earth, and cannot (as far as I can tell), be reconciled with a flat earth, even a rotating one.

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2011, 05:22:51 PM »
Pilots constantly adjust the gyro, or it must be slaved to another system. It is damned near useless in practical terms, never mind your beautifully ideal theories.

I'm actually training for my Pilot's license now, and the gyro is actually an almost invaluable tool that I use far more than my compass. If you set it before takeoff correctly(based off your handy dandy magnetic compass) its one of best navigation tools at my disposal. When you make turns the compass tends to lag, which makes rolling out onto the right heading quite difficult. The gyro is much more accurate on the move. You wouldn't happen to be a pilot would you? I seriously doubt it seeing as you apparently don't have much in the way of a clue what you're talking about.  8)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 05:24:32 PM by TheEarthIsRound7 »
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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 08:04:03 PM »
So far you've somehow managed to exchange "service ceiling" with "surface ceiling" and appear unaware of gyro drift. I don't think I'll be flying with you any time soon.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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momentia

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 09:34:03 PM »
So far you've somehow managed to exchange "service ceiling" with "surface ceiling" and appear unaware of gyro drift. I don't think I'll be flying with you any time soon.

Maybe you forgot that gyros tend to be accurate, but can really mess things up when they are inaccurate, so its good to keep tabs on them.

Quote from: Dutton's Nautical Navigation
To take the gyrocompass from the theoretical to the practical, other correctives must be employe. Latitude for example affects the operation of the compass in ways that require compensation, and environmental factors cause other problems that must be considered and corrected. But all of these problems are surmountable, and the modern gyrocompass has become an extremely valuable asset for those who can afford them. The high cost of these devices make them impractical for many small craft, but they are standard equipment on many commercial and virtually all naval ships.

You can't deny that gyroscopes, even mechanical ones, are extraordinarily useful for navigation. And if mechanical gyroscopes are properly set up, especially in a lab like a foucault gyroscope, they are accurate enough to measure the earths rotation.

And it doesn't matter how much you try to dismantle mechanical gyroscope's credibility anyways. (That's what you've been arguing about so far.) Until an FE'er comes up with an explanation for why optical gyroscopes demonstrate that the earth is round, and thereby directly refute FE, FE cannot exist.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:43:26 PM by momentia »

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 03:07:52 PM »
So far you've somehow managed to exchange "service ceiling" with "surface ceiling" and appear unaware of gyro drift. I don't think I'll be flying with you any time soon.

Really now? I'm pretty sure I did make mention of the need to set gyros before flight and I am aware of the typo I made and I know it was incorrect. You seem to have never flown an aircraft in your life so how in the hell can you tell me how useful a gyro is to a pilot?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 04:33:10 PM »
So far you've somehow managed to exchange "service ceiling" with "surface ceiling" and appear unaware of gyro drift. I don't think I'll be flying with you any time soon.

Really now? I'm pretty sure I did make mention of the need to set gyros before flight and I am aware of the typo I made and I know it was incorrect. You seem to have never flown an aircraft in your life so how in the hell can you tell me how useful a gyro is to a pilot?
If you only set it before the flight, it is damn near useless. I stand by that statement. I'm sure you will learn that by the time you finish your alleged pilot training.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 05:27:49 PM »
So far you've somehow managed to exchange "service ceiling" with "surface ceiling" and appear unaware of gyro drift. I don't think I'll be flying with you any time soon.

Really now? I'm pretty sure I did make mention of the need to set gyros before flight and I am aware of the typo I made and I know it was incorrect. You seem to have never flown an aircraft in your life so how in the hell can you tell me how useful a gyro is to a pilot?
If you only set it before the flight, it is damn near useless. I stand by that statement. I'm sure you will learn that by the time you finish your alleged pilot training.

How so? The reason its used is because the magnetic compass is pretty shit during a turn tighter than a gentle bank, it is very accurate in tracking the heading both turning and cruising. It takes quite a long time for the gyro to drift off the correct heading and it has stayed on through out the flight. Its generally accepted that a aircraft be equipped with both a magnetic compass and gyro. On a particularly long flight if the gyro drifts off than you can just set it back seeing as while cruising the compass is accurate. So its definitely not useless as I have said, with the exception of the compass itself, its the most important tool for navigation, except maybe a GPS, you know, that one with the satellites. Even without the compass/GPS, a good pilot can adjust a gyro without a compass based on time after its last adjustment. Theres a formula for it, so if the pilot isn't the best at math a calculator may be necessary, you can find it here.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 05:42:58 PM »
Quote from: TheEarthIsRound7
t takes quite a long time for the gyro to drift off the correct heading and it has stayed on through out the flight.

You should reset your gyro every fifteen minutes, which you would know if you had ever spent time in a cockpit. You can only do this reliably by slaving the gyro or constantly resetting it based on the magnetic compass. With every turn and bank you are introducing even more error (gimbal error) to the inherent (real) drift in the instrument.

Quote from: TheEarthIsRound7
You wouldn't happen to be a pilot would you? I seriously doubt it seeing as you apparently don't have much in the way of a clue what you're talking about.  8)
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 05:57:06 PM »
Quote from: TheEarthIsRound7
t takes quite a long time for the gyro to drift off the correct heading and it has stayed on through out the flight.

You should reset your gyro every fifteen minutes, which you would know if you had ever spent time in a cockpit. You can only do this reliably by slaving the gyro or constantly resetting it based on the magnetic compass. With every turn and bank you are introducing even more error (gimbal error) to the inherent (real) drift in the instrument.

Quote from: TheEarthIsRound7
You wouldn't happen to be a pilot would you? I seriously doubt it seeing as you apparently don't have much in the way of a clue what you're talking about.  8)

Really now? Cause last I checked its(at least where I live, depends on the latitude) about 7 degrees an hour. I fly the 152, so if I never touched my HI for six hours(about the usual range of the aircraft) I would be off a grand total of 42 degrees. This is quite an offset but its both predicable and easy to fix. If you're cruising for that amount of time what are you doing? Its spent basically looking out the windows and occasionally checking instruments. So basically, if going back 7 degrees an hour is THAT much of an issue you can buy a high end HI that corrects on its own. Now at high latitudes it can be a real problem, but I live in the Southern US, so its an annoyance if anything.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 05:59:47 PM »
How did you get past ground school?  :-\
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 06:15:54 PM »
How did you get past ground school?  :-\

I take it you have no counter argument then?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 07:04:23 PM »
You're right. At 120 mph cruise, you'd only be off course by 312 miles. I'm surprised they even bother to tell people to reset them every 15 minutes.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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momentia

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 07:25:51 PM »
From what I see, FE has absolutely no argument against ring laser gyroscopes measuring the rotation of the earth and the angle of the up vector to the axis of this rotation.

All anyone has been doing is to try to discredit a valuable navigational tool. Never mind the fact that these gyroscopes used for navigation go through much more turbulence and physical input than a gyroscope used to measure the rotation of the earth. And yet they are still good tools. They aren't used on planes and ships for good looks. They are there as a good asset. Ski, even if continue to rail on them, you won't change that fact and you still won't provide evidence against my initial claim.

FE'ers, and Ski in particular since you seem to not accept mechanical gyroscope accuracy, why are RING LASER GYROSCOPES directly contradicting FET? All your arguments so far have been against potential mechanical errors that are nonexistent in optical gyroscopes.

As well, large ring laser gyroscopes are very sensitive to small rotations and are very accurate. In other words, you don't have to wait for a visible procession, you can just measure the beat frequency right away, and from there calculate the angle of up from the axis of earths rotation.

As of right now, FE cannot stand against this experiment.

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TheEarthIsRound7

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 08:01:53 PM »
You're right. At 120 mph cruise, you'd only be off course by 312 miles. I'm surprised they even bother to tell people to reset them every 15 minutes.

Because you never even glance at the compass right? Like I said, when you're simply flying straight, you are pretty much just checking instruments, and looking out the windows. The compass is an instrument. I never said the thing was perfect, nothing is, I'm just saying its a very important tool in the pilot's arsenal.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Ski

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Re: Gyroscopes make FE impossible
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 08:33:46 PM »
As well, large ring laser gyroscopes are very sensitive to small rotations and are very accurate. In other words, you don't have to wait for a visible procession, you can just measure the beat frequency right away, and from there calculate the angle of up from the axis of earths rotation.

This is simply a result of Mach's principle. The whirling heavens above affect the light in the gyroscope.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."