Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17529
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #90 on: July 19, 2011, 10:01:20 AM »
As we are all scientists here, and we know you can only disprove theories, find me any data that contradicts my information, and publish it here for review.  I guaranty that every city within those areas report the conditions I am implying.


BTW, this is how science is done.  Kind of the opposite of how you guys operate.

"Prove me wrong" isn't how science operates. If you're coming here with unsourced daylight times you need to reveal your source. Did you make your image with the aid of historic logs or with the aid of a calculator based on a Round Earth model?

Quote from: Skeleton
Get sunrise and set times from meterological web sites around the internet. It is public domain information and furthermore is 100% accurate.

Those are calculators. They predict what the sunrise and sunset times will be if the earth were a globe and RET were true. They operate under the pretense of a Round Earth.

Unless someone has traveled the world verifying the accuracy of the calculator we can only take it for what it is: a calculator which makes unverified predictions.

Quote from: Skeleton
Of course you didnt describe the sun teleporting, that would be an admission that your model is rubbish. Imagine the scenario... it is the 21st of September and someone in the pacific on the equator is watching the sun set in the west. The sun is sinking at the normal sun speed... but wait! Wait! The Japanese need to see it rising in just a minute! Hells bells, its on the wrong side of the disc! Quick somebody, drag it round to the other side of the earth so the eastern countries can see it!

You have not provided evidence that this hypothetical scenario has occurred.

You guys seem to believe that random people are always paying close attention the the events of the heavens and constantly comparing them to Round Earth predictions. They wouldn't know to do that. They already operate under the assumption that Round Earth Theory is true. No one is out there testing it. No one considers that RET is false.

This is why the Flat Earth Sociey exists: to dispel those misbeliefs which everyone takes for granted.

quote author=EnigmaZV link=topic=30588.msg762220#msg762220 date=1249099444]
To be honest, I'm not a big supporter of that geographic model anyway, but I lack the time and computer skills to do an animation of my own.

If I recall, he likes the idea that Antarctica as a continent exists, which isn't such a bad idea.  Here are a few rough animations of the sun's orbit:



Note that this is simply an azimuthal projection and does not accurately represent the Flat Earth or the orbit of the sun.

Again, the data is from a calculator based on a hypothetical model, not logs or observations which were seen in reality.

An animator could make such a daylight map for the patterns of light as seen on a torus earth. Would it demonstrate that the earth is a torus? No. It would be a hypothetical pattern which is unbacked by observational evidence, exactly as your animated patterns are here.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:11:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Skeleton

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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2011, 05:20:31 AM »
An animator could make such a daylight map for the patterns of light as seen on a torus earth. Would it demonstrate that the earth is a torus? No. It would be a hypothetical pattern which is unbacked by observational evidence, exactly as your animated patterns are here.

You ignore my account of a friend using predictive ephemeris to find sunset times in different places of the world to photograph sunsets, and finding they are correct.
It is the work of moments for anyone here to look up a predicted sunset/sunrise time for wherever they are in the world and then zetetically observe it to see if the prediction matches reality. If you wish to dispute the accuracy of predictive algorithms you must first demonstrate that they do not match reality by recording data from various places in the world. This is an easy task if we can get everyone on this forum to work together on this as we have a wide global distribution. Your "herp derp, they are computed predictions therefore cannot be correct, durrr" mantra is nothing but an assumption until you can show that.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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momentia

  • 425
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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2011, 03:36:32 PM »
As we are all scientists here, and we know you can only disprove theories, find me any data that contradicts my information, and publish it here for review.  I guaranty that every city within those areas report the conditions I am implying.


BTW, this is how science is done.  Kind of the opposite of how you guys operate.

"Prove me wrong" isn't how science operates. If you're coming here with unsourced daylight times you need to reveal your source. Did you make your image with the aid of historic logs or with the aid of a calculator based on a Round Earth model?

Quote from: Skeleton
Get sunrise and set times from meterological web sites around the internet. It is public domain information and furthermore is 100% accurate.

Those are calculators. They predict what the sunrise and sunset times will be if the earth were a globe and RET were true. They operate under the pretense of a Round Earth.

Unless someone has traveled the world verifying the accuracy of the calculator we can only take it for what it is: a calculator which makes unverified predictions.



Again, the data is from a calculator based on a hypothetical model, not logs or observations which were seen in reality.

An animator could make such a daylight map for the patterns of light as seen on a torus earth. Would it demonstrate that the earth is a torus? No. It would be a hypothetical pattern which is unbacked by observational evidence, exactly as your animated patterns are here.

Hey, here's a little experiment I came up with:
I put a paper clip hanging from a string over a pan of water. In the water, I had a piece of paper just floating at the surface.
This creates a vertical rod (the string) hanging over a flat surface (the water.)
Then I measured the length of the shadow by marking the ends of the shadow with holes from a paperclip.
I measured the length of the string.
I used a straightedge to trace the direction of the shadow onto a piece of paper which I had aligned with true North using a compass and correction (for the difference of magnetic and true.).


Also The next two pictures were big, so I linked instead of posting them:
http://i51.tinypic.com/xawfhs.jpg

From this, I calculated the sun's position in the sky. I then compared the results to a calculator based on the RE model using my (Lat, Long) coordinates and the time that I gathered the data.
(at http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/azel.html)

And behold, in the lower left corner of the sheet with my calculations, My calculations and the RE model predictions are very similar:
58.31 vs. 58.99(RE calculated) degrees from the horizon,
218 vs. 217.23(RE calculated)  from true north.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2w7oaj8.jpg

Pretty darn good results there for the RE calculator.

Now, I live in Western Washington. I suggest that you repeat this experiment at your own home, use the RE calculator and compare the results to yours.


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Skeleton

  • 956
  • Frankly, I have better things to do with my time.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2011, 03:50:15 PM »
Well done Brother Momentia, for using proper zetetic principles to put Bob Bishop in his place. I applaud your experiment.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Around And About

  • 2615
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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2011, 04:22:59 PM »
Hey, here's a little experiment I came up with:

A good indicator that one is reading a globby's post, amirite?
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.

Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2011, 06:00:15 PM »
great post, you are are great zetetist.

unlike the FAQQERS, who just present youtube videos as their evidence,

great job, wish I was able to photograph my sunrise (flock of seagulls) experiment

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Puttah

  • 1860
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2011, 11:12:50 PM »
Again, the data is from a calculator based on a hypothetical model, not logs or observations which were seen in reality.
Such absurdity, but nonetheless, clearly no one has noticed anything wrong with the calculators but even if they're off by up to an hour, your map is suggesting huge errors, and for a spotlight sun... well... I want to see your predictive sun path, please.
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #97 on: July 21, 2011, 06:42:04 PM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine and accurate experiment posted by momentia

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Around And About

  • 2615
  • Circular Logic Falls Flat
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2011, 07:51:11 PM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine and accurate experiment posted by momentia

I feel as if we are witnessing a historically significant occasion for TFES here...a momentious occasion!
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2011, 03:07:50 AM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine* and accurate* experiment posted by momentia
* - citation needed
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2011, 03:29:13 PM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine* and accurate* experiment posted by momentia
* - citation needed

Oh dang, looks like moose forgot to provide a link to my post with original procedure, experiment data, and results. Moose, you can't expect pizza to use a scroll bar to find the post. She needs a link.

Here's all my data:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49558.msg1219713#msg1219713

I suggest you repeat the experiment, or perhaps get a more technically inclined friend to do it for you. Have a good week.

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dado

  • 107
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2011, 03:43:21 PM »
Is any FEer going to reply regarding the distance of 40.000km? Seems that you guys have been avoiding this purposely as you don't have an answer to Theodolite's question.
Apart from that, I still don't see the distance between Arg-Nz (by sea) is even remotely close to what it actually is (6000 miles).

ALSO, the map you provided in this thread - please make up your minds, what MAP IS YOUR OFFICIAL MAP??
As you claim the Earth to be flat, lets see your real map?

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TheEarthIsRound7

  • 51
  • The Truth will always come out.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2011, 05:12:36 PM »
To bad on a disk earth there is no way to have a magnetic field. You need a core for that, most FEers have said its just rock. You also have to spin, and that has also been rejected by the flat earthers. This process is explained by the Dynamo Theory. It cannot be a giant bar magnet because the prime merdian would be totally screwed up.*

*Take your pick.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2011, 05:50:37 PM »
To bad on a disk earth there is no way to have a magnetic field. You need a core for that, most FEers have said its just rock.

Who said it's just rock?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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TheEarthIsRound7

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  • The Truth will always come out.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2011, 05:52:37 PM »
The few times I've seen it "explained" they said it was rocks/stone/whatever. Nothing of an Iron core.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 27043
  • I'm the boss.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #105 on: September 26, 2011, 05:54:26 PM »
The few times I've seen it "explained" they said it was rocks/stone/whatever. Nothing of an Iron core.

Can you provide an example?  There may be some exceptions of whom I'm unaware but I believe the consensus is that the Earth has an iron core.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2011, 06:01:09 PM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine* and accurate* experiment posted by momentia
* - citation needed

Oh dang, looks like moose forgot to provide a link to my post with original procedure, experiment data, and results. Moose, you can't expect pizza to use a scroll bar to find the post. She needs a link.

Here's all my data:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49558.msg1219713#msg1219713
I don't see how linking the experiment whose truthfulness and genuinity I have contested addresses the fact that I contested it.

I will now do exactly what you did:
  • The Earth is flat.
  • If you disagree, please see above point.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »
notice how no FEers acknowledge the genuine* and accurate* experiment posted by momentia
* - citation needed

Oh dang, looks like moose forgot to provide a link to my post with original procedure, experiment data, and results. Moose, you can't expect pizza to use a scroll bar to find the post. She needs a link.

Here's all my data:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49558.msg1219713#msg1219713
I don't see how linking the experiment whose truthfulness and genuinity I have contested addresses the fact that I contested it.

I will now do exactly what you did:
  • The Earth is flat.
  • If you disagree, please see above point.

I see no method and no physical evidence.
I did an experiment and provided both method and physical evidence.
All I can say is that sun position calculators are correct in my region, and I highly suspect that they are accurate elsewhere.

All you can do is say that I falsified my data, which I did not do. I provided pictures to document as much as possible. If you are not willing to trust some results and do not do the experiment for yourself, I see little point for you to be discussing it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:48:15 PM by momentia »

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TheEarthIsRound7

  • 51
  • The Truth will always come out.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #108 on: September 26, 2011, 07:22:31 PM »
The few times I've seen it "explained" they said it was rocks/stone/whatever. Nothing of an Iron core.

Can you provide an example?  There may be some exceptions of whom I'm unaware but I believe the consensus is that the Earth has an iron core.

Not really, I just saw it here before I signed up and don't remember where.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

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Puttah

  • 1860
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #109 on: September 26, 2011, 07:40:23 PM »
the consensus is that the Earth has an iron core.
Would that be liquid iron?
Scepti, this idiocy needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this fine forum with your poor trolling. You are a complete disgrace.

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PizzaPlanet

  • 12191
  • Now available in stereo
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2011, 07:42:47 PM »
All you can do is say that I falsified my data, which I did not do.
Don't tell me what I can and cannot say. It's pretty dishonest, and you don't want to be dishonest if you want to be credible.
I am saying your experiment is an absolute non sequitur - it does not relate to the thread.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2011, 08:14:49 PM »



In the above model there are two spinning celestial systems suspended over the earth. One is centered over the North Pole and the other is centered over Antarctica. When observers on South America, Africa, or Australia look Southwards they will see the Southern Celestial System.

What do they see when they look straight up?  I'm also curious about what those along the equator see when they look up.  Would they see the north and south stars moving away from eachother the further one travels along the equator from the 'middle'?

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momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2011, 09:22:08 PM »
All you can do is say that I falsified my data, which I did not do.
Don't tell me what I can and cannot say. It's pretty dishonest, and you don't want to be dishonest if you want to be credible.
I am saying your experiment is an absolute non sequitur - it does not relate to the thread.

As we are all scientists here, and we know you can only disprove theories, find me any data that contradicts my information, and publish it here for review.  I guaranty that every city within those areas report the conditions I am implying.


BTW, this is how science is done.  Kind of the opposite of how you guys operate.

"Prove me wrong" isn't how science operates. If you're coming here with unsourced daylight times you need to reveal your source. Did you make your image with the aid of historic logs or with the aid of a calculator based on a Round Earth model?

Quote from: Skeleton
Get sunrise and set times from meterological web sites around the internet. It is public domain information and furthermore is 100% accurate.

Those are calculators. They predict what the sunrise and sunset times will be if the earth were a globe and RET were true. They operate under the pretense of a Round Earth.

Unless someone has traveled the world verifying the accuracy of the calculator we can only take it for what it is: a calculator which makes unverified predictions.

Quote from: Skeleton
Of course you didnt describe the sun teleporting, that would be an admission that your model is rubbish. Imagine the scenario... it is the 21st of September and someone in the pacific on the equator is watching the sun set in the west. The sun is sinking at the normal sun speed... but wait! Wait! The Japanese need to see it rising in just a minute! Hells bells, its on the wrong side of the disc! Quick somebody, drag it round to the other side of the earth so the eastern countries can see it!

You have not provided evidence that this hypothetical scenario has occurred.

You guys seem to believe that random people are always paying close attention the the events of the heavens and constantly comparing them to Round Earth predictions. They wouldn't know to do that. They already operate under the assumption that Round Earth Theory is true. No one is out there testing it. No one considers that RET is false.

This is why the Flat Earth Sociey exists: to dispel those misbeliefs which everyone takes for granted.

quote author=EnigmaZV link=topic=30588.msg762220#msg762220 date=1249099444]
To be honest, I'm not a big supporter of that geographic model anyway, but I lack the time and computer skills to do an animation of my own.

If I recall, he likes the idea that Antarctica as a continent exists, which isn't such a bad idea.  Here are a few rough animations of the sun's orbit:



Note that this is simply an azimuthal projection and does not accurately represent the Flat Earth or the orbit of the sun.

Again, the data is from a calculator based on a hypothetical model, not logs or observations which were seen in reality.

An animator could make such a daylight map for the patterns of light as seen on a torus earth. Would it demonstrate that the earth is a torus? No. It would be a hypothetical pattern which is unbacked by observational evidence, exactly as your animated patterns are here.

Tom Bishop questioned the validity of RE solar position calculators. I did an experiment and determined that RE calculations were valid, at least in my location, and invited him to continue similar experiments. I believe this was highly relevant. From what I could tell in your previous posts, you questioned that my experiments were "genuine and accurate" (you said citation needed.) In response, I said I documented my experiment as best I could and that you were free to call me a liar or a bad experimenter, but otherwise would have to trust my results. You never questioned the method, and since you said you doubted the truthfulness, I assumed you might think I falsified data. If you think you can say more about my experiment, go ahead, but it WAS relevant to the discussion at the time, and was done as carefully and precisely as I could.

Anyways, about Tom's map, I see no evidence for it. One (of many) things I can say against it is that lines of longitude are non-symetrical. I.e. there is significant difference between lines of longitude. This would imply that longitude would be easily determinable from position of celestial objects. However, this is not the case. Longitude was only roughly estimated by dead reckoning before the invention of clocks that worked at sea. For RE, or even pole centric FE, this makes sense because longitude lines are radially symmetric, and the earth (or heavens in FE) turn once a day, so there are no celestial clues as to ones longitude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude#Problem_of_longitude

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17529
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2011, 10:22:56 PM »
What do they see when they look straight up?  I'm also curious about what those along the equator see when they look up.  Would they see the north and south stars moving away from eachother the further one travels along the equator from the 'middle'?

Yes. That's exactly what they see.





At the equator one sees the stars in the gears coming together and then spreading apart.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:26:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

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momentia

  • 425
  • Light abhors a straight line.
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2011, 02:51:04 PM »

from: http://www.astrosurf.com/sguisard/Pagim/From_pole_to_pole.html
At the equator, one sees semicircular trails around a north south line as predicted in RE. The photos at this site demonstrate the symmetry between the paths of stars north and south of the equator.

However, there is other evidence that longitudinal lines are symmetrical. As in you couldn't determine your longitude accurately at sea without a clock to reference.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17529
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2011, 02:55:26 PM »
The photos at this site demonstrate the symmetry between the paths of stars north and south of the equator.

No it doesn't. The images are being warped by an image editing program to make them symmetrical. You can see the warping when looking at the clouds and the land.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 03:08:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2011, 03:03:55 PM »
Tom Bishop questioned the validity of RE solar position calculators.
What you were replying to was questioning the validity of sunrise and sunset estimations as proof of a round Earth. You even quoted it in your post.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Nolhekh

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Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #117 on: September 27, 2011, 05:58:46 PM »
What do they see when they look straight up?  I'm also curious about what those along the equator see when they look up.  Would they see the north and south stars moving away from eachother the further one travels along the equator from the 'middle'?

Yes. That's exactly what they see.

At the equator one sees the stars in the gears coming together and then spreading apart.

If both gear centres are positioned above the flat earth, then both would be visible from anywhere on earth.  In both of your posted images, stars are revolving around one "gear" that is well above the horizon, and one that is undeniably "below" the horizon.  Suggesting that the other gear, which is supposedly above one pole, is actually underneath the earth relative to the observer.

Your stars "coming together and spreading apart" explanation doesn't account for the fact that the angular distance between the stars does not change regardless of the location observed from, especially with this new map, where one hemisphere of the pacific ocean is on the other side of the world from the other half, yet still see stars revolving above the other half, when the northern hemisphere atlantic can't even see the centre of the southern gear.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17529
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2011, 06:24:59 PM »
If both gear centres are positioned above the flat earth, then both would be visible from anywhere on earth.

You forgot about the rules of perspective as described in Earth Not a Globe by Samuel Birley Rowbotham. Perspective doesn't allow one to see forever into the distance. I suggest you read the book we keep telling you to read..

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Nolhekh

  • 1669
  • Animator
Re: Alternative FET Map which addresses Southern Hemisphere issues
« Reply #119 on: September 27, 2011, 06:51:22 PM »
If both gear centres are positioned above the flat earth, then both would be visible from anywhere on earth.

You forgot about the rules of perspective as described in Earth Not a Globe by Samuel Birley Rowbotham. Perspective doesn't allow one to see forever into the distance. I suggest you read the book we keep telling you to read..

While I disagree with some of his rules, this gear theory is in conflict with both of our understandings of perspective regarding this new map. From the north pacific ocean, one can supposedly see even further to the stars above the south pacific ocean.  A distance that is further than the south pole is from the atlantic side of the northern hemisphere.   Also, Rowbotham describes objects as disappearing into the horizon, not underneath it.  And you don't need rowbotham to know that a circular path when viewed from an angle turns into an ellipse.  Which is something that is not observed in the stars' apparent motions.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:51:25 PM by Nolhekh »