How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth

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Pongo

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How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« on: May 12, 2010, 10:57:04 PM »
Over the duration of the next few paragraphs I intent to show you how the indisputable theory of evolution by natural selection is in direct contradiction with the theory of a round earth.  These words will be sure to irritate and offend many readers as a flat earth contrasts what they were taught in school, and evolution goes against what they were told in church.  However, I am sure that anyone perusing the material with an open mind will see the truth.  I can only hope that I can help some of you shed off years of forced indoctrination and see the world in its true form.

As is commonly known, Charles Darwin first proposed the theory of evolution in 1859 to a sea of scientists and thinkers.  Some people read his works and accepted the facts with an open mind, some took a great deal longer but eventually saw the truth, but many rejected the theory outright and fought fervently in opposition till their dying day.  Why would one fight so strongly against a new idea?  Mainly, because it directly opposed their current understanding of the Judeo-Christian god's role in the creation of the universe.  At the time, only a fictitious entity could be used to explain the phenomenon of life; much like today's NASA explaining space travel.  This is why people have clung so long and hard to their fight against evolution despite the endless libraries of facts supporting the theory.  

As finches were an integral part to Darwin creating his world-renowned theory, I shall use birds to explain how life on a round earth is simply not practical.

Birds, in all their forms and facets, constitute half of all the animals on earth.  They thrive on every continent and even excel as swimmers and runners in addition to their obvious talent of flight.  They are decedent from great lizard kings which departed this flat land some 65 million years ago.  Most interesting of all perhaps, is their migratory habits.  Below is an image of migration paths of birds that live, at least partly, in the arctic.  (I apologize for the inaccuracies of this map)


As you can see, birds only migrate in a north/south pattern.  Which would look like spokes on a wheel if drawn on a correct flat-earth map.  This is because it is inefficient to fly around the outer rim of a wheel when an easier route is up and down a 'spoke'.  But how does this relate to evolution?  I'm glad you asked.  Evolution favors the individual that can best adapt to its environment.  This superior adaptability translates to more successful genes being passed onto its offspring until such a time that the species' gene pool is saturated with only the best genes.  Natural selection favored the birds that used less energy by following migration patters that best suited a flat earth.

Other genes for efficient flying can also be seen in how birds use air currents and updrafts to expend less energy in flight.  This graph shows the various altitudes in which birds fly:


Note carefully the different heights in which birds migrate.  If the earth were round, all birds would fly their great distances as close to the surface as possible as to shorten their journey.  If you were flying on a sphere, the shortest line from point A to point B would be as close to the surface as possible.  However, as you can see, birds have again proven the shape of the earth to be flat in their evolutionary endeavor to conserve energy.  They do not have to worry about altitudes on a flat earth.  The trip will be just as short at any altitude (minus the rises and falls to and from their flight height).

In summation, remember that birds are some of the most highly evolved species on the planet.  They are descended from the ancient dinosaurs and as such, have come quite adapt to living on this flat earth.  Meaning that if any species is equipped to reduce energy output in any way possible, it's the birds.  Next time you see a bird, which I suspect will be soon, give a silent thank you to our feathery friends for helping us see the world for truly what it is; a flat disc.  I hope this has helped you as a reader understand some of the 'truths' you take for granted.  I know many of you won't or can't accept the words I write here, but please keep them in mind over the course of the next few years.  Slowly, as the ideas mull around your brain, I'm sure you will come to accept them, just as many scientists slowly came to accept Darwin's groundbreaking theory over a century and a half ago.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 04:25:42 AM by Pongo »

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General Disarray

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 11:10:51 PM »
I remain unconvinced.

Your argument seems to boil down to: "Birds fly at high altitudes, meaning they aren't taking the shortest path, therefore the Earth is flat". You completely discount any other possible reasons for flying high such as oh, I don't know, avoiding obstacles on the ground perhaps? I'm not a biologist specializing in bird migration, so I couldn't give you an exact answer, but I doubt you are either.

Also, this is completely lacking any concrete data or citations to back it up, and as I mentioned above, there are a number of things you neglected to take into account in your analysis. A bit more work and you might have something, keep trying!
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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 02:30:21 AM »
Or it could be that different wing types fly most efficiently at differing altitudes/pressures/temperatures/humidity levels.

By your argument's logic, I could just as easily say:  "Birds can't exist AT ALL on a round Earth, because taking routes through the air would average to having longer paths than traveling along the ground.  The most efficient animals on a round Earth would have to be moles, as they can travel in straight lines through the ground."  It's laughable in failing to take the numerous potential variables into account.

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Parsifal

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 02:37:51 AM »
To the OP, I would like to add that the excellent intuitive navigation displayed in birds hints at a long evolutionary history of long-distance travel, which also provides support for the theory that dinosaurs travelled the Earth in boats.
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General Douchebag

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 02:56:17 AM »
I remain unconvinced.

Your argument seems to boil down to: "Birds fly at high altitudes, meaning they aren't taking the shortest path, therefore the Earth is flat". You completely discount any other possible reasons for flying high such as oh, I don't know, avoiding obstacles on the ground perhaps? I'm not a biologist specializing in bird migration, so I couldn't give you an exact answer, but I doubt you are either.

Also, this is completely lacking any concrete data or citations to back it up, and as I mentioned above, there are a number of things you neglected to take into account in your analysis. A bit more work and you might have something, keep trying!

You'll also have to account for them going above any reasonable thermals and the sharp increase in difficulty when flying at lower pressures.

Or it could be that different wing types fly most efficiently at differing altitudes/pressures/temperatures/humidity levels.

By your argument's logic, I could just as easily say:  "Birds can't exist AT ALL on a round Earth, because taking routes through the air would average to having longer paths than traveling along the ground.  The most efficient animals on a round Earth would have to be moles, as they can travel in straight lines through the ground."  It's laughable in failing to take the numerous potential variables into account.


What wing works better at low pressure? Contact Boeing, if the Earth is round you've got an easy path to space!
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 03:28:07 AM »
 I know you're just trolling, but at least be classy about it.  Even if we ignore that different birds use different wings to fly in different manners, there's also the fact that it's no major loss of distance either way.  Their altitude may be a few thousand feet; considering some migrate many thousands of miles every year, the difference in distances between one path and another isn't a major one by any stretch.

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General Douchebag

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 03:49:48 AM »
I know you're just trolling, but at least be classy about it.  Even if we ignore that different birds use different wings to fly in different manners, there's also the fact that it's no major loss of distance either way.  Their altitude may be a few thousand feet; considering some migrate many thousands of miles every year, the difference in distances between one path and another isn't a major one by any stretch.

We really shouldn't be ignoring these magic wings in the first place, or the effort required by the birds in achieving these altitudes, or the fact that the longer the migration the larger the difference will be, and the more important it will be.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 03:54:42 AM »
Why do salmon swim upstream if it requires so much extra effort and a sizable number of them will die along the way?  You and Pongo seem to think inefficient things can't evolve, or perhaps that remnants from earlier forms of a species can't be kept even if they're apparently harmful at first glance.  Whatever small difference there is to be had by being ever-so-slightly further from the Earth is pretty much negligible on these scales.

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 04:19:28 AM »
Salmon swim upstream because there is a measurable advantage to laying eggs in a safe environment.  Birds share no advantage in wasting energy during flight.  Your analogy is flawed.

The most efficient animals on a round Earth would have to be moles, as they can travel in straight lines through the ground."  It's laughable in failing to take the numerous potential variables into account.

Could you please elaborate on the migration patterns of moles.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 04:28:30 AM by Pongo »

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General Douchebag

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2010, 04:27:32 AM »
Salmon swim upstream because there is a measurable advantage to laying eggs in a safe environment.  Birds share no advantage in wasting energy during flight.  Your analogy is flawed.

Whoa, whoa. Hang on, it's much safer higher up. Even though the low pressure and lack of thermals mean they have to work much harder and there's less oxygen to fuel this,  we must remember that flying at several thousand feet above the ground is the only way to avoid plunging into mountains.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 04:36:44 AM »
Could you please elaborate on the migration patterns of moles.
Note the: "laughable and failing to take numerous potential variables into account" part.

Birds share no advantage in wasting energy during flight.  Your analogy is flawed.
What advantage do warblers have in collecting obscure objects?  What advantage do peacocks have in displaying bright colors?  You'll note in my post that I said:  "You and Pongo seem to think...that remnants from earlier forms of a species can't be kept even if they're apparently harmful at first glance."  Just because you don't immediately recognize an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one--and even if there isn't, it could just be a mostly neutral byproduct from their ancestors.  It doesn't come anywhere near living up to the "proof" claim in the thread title.

Quote from: Douchebag
Even though the low pressure and lack of thermals mean they have to work much harder and there's less oxygen to fuel this...
Those exact same problems arise in the FE model.  Your whole view on the issue seems to be "Why do birds fly high at all? Herp derp."

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 04:48:42 AM »
Could you please elaborate on the migration patterns of moles.
Note the: "laughable and failing to take numerous potential variables into account" part.

We are talking about migration, citing moles as an example is irrelevant and you should feel bad for having posted it.

Birds share no advantage in wasting energy during flight.  Your analogy is flawed.
What advantage do warblers have in collecting obscure objects?  What advantage do peacocks have in displaying bright colors?  You'll note in my post that I said:  "You and Pongo seem to think...that remnants from earlier forms of a species can't be kept even if they're apparently harmful at first glance."  Just because you don't immediately recognize an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one--and even if there isn't, it could just be a mostly neutral byproduct from their ancestors.  It doesn't come anywhere near living up to the "proof" claim in the thread title.

Warblers are fulfilling an urge to build nests and Peacocks are brightly colored because of sexual selection.  Both a well built nest and bright colors improve chances of successful reproduction.  Are there any other areas of evolution that I can clear up for you?

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Parsifal

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 04:56:58 AM »
Salmon swim upstream because there is a measurable advantage to laying eggs in a safe environment.  Birds share no advantage in wasting energy during flight.  Your analogy is flawed.

There is a marked lack of predators in the sky, giving high altitudes an unprecendented edge as a safe egg-laying environment.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 05:00:46 AM »
We are talking about migration, citing moles as an example is irrelevant and you should feel bad for having posted it.

I was poking fun at your silly logic with something equally silly.  That birds flying at higher altitudes would have to travel slightly further thanks to the curvature of the Earth somehow "proves" the Earth is flat is just as laughable in my eyes.


Warblers are fulfilling an urge to build nests and Peacocks are brightly colored because of sexual selection.  Both a well built nest and bright colors improve chances of successful reproduction.  Are there any other areas of evolution that I can clear up for you?

Wow, you apparently don't understand rhetorical questions in the least.  I was citing them to prove a point that evidently went over your head; these are things that would at first glance seem to hinder the species as a whole, but are still used and still make sense in evolutionary theory.  These are the kinds of things still pointed out to this very day as trying to mock the theory by people who don't understand it, and your argument from ignorance is as valid as theirs.  "I can't think of a reason for it to be this way on a round Earth, so the Earth must not be round."

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 05:01:20 AM »
There is a marked lack of predators in the sky...

What about airborne pathogens?

Warblers are fulfilling an urge to build nests and Peacocks are brightly colored because of sexual selection.  Both a well built nest and bright colors improve chances of successful reproduction.  Are there any other areas of evolution that I can clear up for you?

Wow, you apparently don't understand rhetorical questions in the least.  I was citing them to prove a point that evidently went over your head; these are things that would at first glance seem to hinder the species as a whole, but are still used and still make sense in evolutionary theory.  These are the kinds of things still pointed out to this very day as trying to mock the theory by people who don't understand it, and your argument from ignorance is as valid as theirs.  "I can't think of a reason for it to be this way on a round Earth, so the Earth must not be round."

These things you listed may be apparently harmful at first glance to you (as you put it), but to me they are immediately apparent.  Your ill-worded post confused me.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 05:04:37 AM by Pongo »

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Parsifal

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 05:07:16 AM »
There is a marked lack of predators in the sky...

What about airborne pathogens?

I would expect there to be no more in the sky than there would be at surface level. Relative to surface level, the sky bears very few dangers to living creatures.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 05:12:43 AM »
Your ill-worded post confused me.

Ah, rhetorical questions confuse you, I see.  I'll avoid them in your presence henceforth.

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General Douchebag

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 05:23:35 AM »
Quote from: Douchebag
Even though the low pressure and lack of thermals mean they have to work much harder and there's less oxygen to fuel this...
Those exact same problems arise in the FE model.  Your whole view on the issue seems to be "Why do birds fly high at all? Herp derp."

It is, to be honest, but the problem gets considerably more retarded when you add the extra distance, which was the point you missed. There's no need for personal attacks, particularly not in lieu of an actual point.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Pongo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2010, 05:32:27 AM »
There is a marked lack of predators in the sky...

What about airborne pathogens?

I would expect there to be no more in the sky than there would be at surface level. Relative to surface level, the sky bears very few dangers to living creatures.

Well said.  Birds should perhaps look into the notion of in-flight egg laying.  Perhaps if they deposit enough methane gas into their eggs, the embryo's could float around the upper air currents and be completely rid of predators.  Also, I'm glad I can help further your dinosaur-boat theory.

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James

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2010, 12:27:35 PM »
It is true, the excellent navigational skills of birds are likely to have evolved during the transoceanic migrations of their flightless ancestors, the dinosaurs. Selection pressures favoured those with an inherently good sense of cartography and geography, and though modern avians lost significant intellectual nous in the evolutionary process, they retained both the navigational skills and tool-use of the Cretaceous dinosaurs.

Pongo, thank you for your contributions to zetetic paleobiology.
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Lorddave

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 12:41:39 PM »
Of course it could be much simpler than that...

Land is much easier to spot and find your bearing with when you're high above it as are lakes, safe landing spots, and potential spots for food.
Not to mention it's a hell of a lot easier to glide.

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markjo

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 12:51:29 PM »
As you can see, birds only migrate in a north/south pattern.  Which would look like spokes on a wheel if drawn on a correct flat-earth map.  This is because it is inefficient to fly around the outer rim of a wheel when an easier route is up and down a 'spoke'.

That's odd.  I always thought that birds migrated in a north/south pattern because of the nature of the changing seasons.  :-\
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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 12:59:53 PM »
Birds fly based on their internal electromagnetic compass, Not their advanced knowledge non-euclidean geometer. Evolution is not goal oriented, it takes what is there, and the better traits survive and have offspring. /thread

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2010, 01:02:53 PM »
To the OP, I would like to add that the excellent intuitive navigation displayed in birds hints at a long evolutionary history of long-distance travel, which also provides support for the theory that dinosaurs travelled the Earth in boats.

are you serious? the dino's had boats ???

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2010, 01:05:32 PM »
There is a marked lack of predators in the sky...

What about airborne pathogens?

Warblers are fulfilling an urge to build nests and Peacocks are brightly colored because of sexual selection.  Both a well built nest and bright colors improve chances of successful reproduction.  Are there any other areas of evolution that I can clear up for you?

Wow, you apparently don't understand rhetorical questions in the least.  I was citing them to prove a point that evidently went over your head; these are things that would at first glance seem to hinder the species as a whole, but are still used and still make sense in evolutionary theory.  These are the kinds of things still pointed out to this very day as trying to mock the theory by people who don't understand it, and your argument from ignorance is as valid as theirs.  "I can't think of a reason for it to be this way on a round Earth, so the Earth must not be round."

These things you listed may be apparently harmful at first glance to you (as you put it), but to me they are immediately apparent.  Your ill-worded post confused me.

Cause viruses def. are more abundant at high altitudes.
*sigh*

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General Disarray

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2010, 01:08:31 PM »
So when we take into account that there may be other reasons beside pure distance that birds fly at a high altitude, this "theory" is dead.

It wouldn't even work in a flat earth model. We observe that birds fly high, so the birds would have to waste energy climbing to a high altitude for their trip, and in terms of distance, flying low would be the shorter route anyway. So this really proves absolutely nothing.
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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2010, 01:08:57 PM »
There is a marked lack of predators in the sky...

What about airborne pathogens?

I would expect there to be no more in the sky than there would be at surface level. Relative to surface level, the sky bears very few dangers to living creatures.

For once I agree with you. Don't you think there would be considerably less, considering there would be less cells to carry said pathogens?

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The Question1

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2010, 02:59:55 PM »
I don't follow.If they are high up,how would this mean the earth is flat?
I mean,they are high up.Sphere or disc they are high up.

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James

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2010, 05:06:24 PM »
Birds fly based on their internal electromagnetic compass, Not their advanced knowledge non-euclidean geometer. Evolution is not goal oriented, it takes what is there, and the better traits survive and have offspring. /thread

What are you talking about? Of course evolution is goal oriented. It aims at producing the most survivable species in a given context, as you basically just said!
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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flyingmonkey

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Re: How Evolution Proves a Flat Earth
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2010, 05:13:39 PM »
Birds fly based on their internal electromagnetic compass, Not their advanced knowledge non-euclidean geometer. Evolution is not goal oriented, it takes what is there, and the better traits survive and have offspring. /thread

What are you talking about? Of course evolution is goal oriented. It aims at producing the most survivable species in a given context, as you basically just said!

But it doesn't go hurr lets make this guy here stand on two legs so he has free hands.

That would be a goal.


What happens is

Hurr, this guy is using his hands a lot, after a few thousand generations and mutations, their species leg muscles and bone structure might change so that his hands are completely free.


Not goal orientated.