The Compass Doesn't Lie

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The Compass Doesn't Lie
« on: April 26, 2010, 10:31:53 PM »
Quote from: FAQ
Q: "How can a compass work on a Flat Earth?"

A: The magnetic field is generated in the same fashion as with the RE (Diagram). Thus, the magnetic south pole is near the geographic north pole, just like on the RE.  The magnetic north pole is on the underside of the Earth. The Ice Wall is not the south pole, but acts as it, as it is the furthest from the center of the earth that you can follow the magnetic field. The field is vertical in this area, accounting for the aurora australis.

This is wrong, and I'm going to show you why.


Let's say we have a magnet.  Most of you will be familiar with similar diagrams such as this:



What I'm showing here are the lines of magnetic flux decreasing in strength with greater distance, but this doesn't mean much if we don't know its polarity, so let's give it poles.



You'll notice now that the lines of magnetic flux move from the north pole to the south one while outside the object (and from south to north while inside it).  What does this have to do with the shape of the Earth?  Well, let's bring another magnet closer to this field and see how it acts.



The magnet I've put next to it is a compass, with its red side designating north and its blue side designating south.  We can move this compass anywhere around the magnet and watch it trace out exactly where the lines of magnetic flux are located.  Any dipole can do this.  Notice how it acts when we approach the poles; north opposes north but attracts south.  South opposes south, but attracts north.  Opposites attract and likes repel.  Now, let's see what happens when we change the shape of the magnet.  Let's have a spherical one (like a planet), as well as the disk-shaped one the FAQ says to use.



Let's check out the spherical one first.  Notice how (following the lines of magnetic flux) it is in most places horizontal (parallel to the ground), only acting strangely when we approach the poles.  This is completely consistent with what we observe in the real world.  The disk model, however, presents a problem.  Let's take a closer look.



The compass isn't horizontal--it is vertical, perpendicular to the ground.  Not only that, but it doesn't move much no matter where on the disk you are, regardless of which side of the disk you're on!  Since we know compasses don't act in this way, the disk model has a major flaw.  Compasses act only in the manner we would predict on a spherical planet.  The only way to stick to the disk model is to fix the magnetism problem.  I'll play devil's advocate and see exactly what kind of lines of magnetic flux we would need on a disk to have compasses act in the manner we know they do...



Now let's add the poles.



Well this is strange.  A magnet that is north in the middle, but south around the edge.  Not only does this never occur naturally, it is actually an impossible configuration for a permanent magnet!  Okay, let's not make it permanent.  I'll play devil's advocate one step beyond too far and say there are two gigantic copper coils with some serious current flowing through them to induce this magnetic field manually.



Hrmm, notice how the northern poles in the middle oppose each other?  That's why this doesn't occur naturally--it would fly apart.


So there you have it.  A simple compass hints at the shape of our planet--not telling us exactly what it is, of course, but certainly telling us exactly what it isn't.  Not only have I shown how magnets act in relation to each other, I bent over backwards to fit the disk model.  Using the model the FAQ states does not properly explain the direction of compasses (in the disk model, compasses point vertically instead of horizontally).  Trying to keep with the disk shape, I was forced to break from the failed model and bent over backwards to create a magnetic form that would explain compass directions.  There are no natural magnets of such a configuration, and artificially made ones would force themselves apart.  The planet can not be a disk, and magnets do not act in the manner proposed by the FAQ; therefor, I move that this section of the FAQ be altered or removed, as it does not fit the data.  If you have a problem with any steps in this process, please tell me exactly where it is.

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2010, 10:40:23 PM »
This is the kind of proof I've been asking for so far on my posts!

Now, I would absolutely adore it if the Flat-Earthers had a model like this. One that makes sense, with logical explanations that everyone can understand. Remember my other post children, apparently the RE side has the whole scientific method down, your turn...

Bravo Ellipsis...

Convert Me
If I had to guess a reaction though... It'd be "Conspiracy!" or "Ha ha ha, that's not true! Because 1 + 1 = the oneness of one! hahaha."

I apologize for my growing harshness towards your community. Please, Again, Prove yourselves right.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 10:42:15 PM by justaquestion »

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 01:15:02 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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flyingmonkey

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 01:35:28 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.


No it wouldn't

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Sliver

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 07:29:11 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.
He just showed you how that would not work.

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 07:59:56 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.
He just showed you how that would not work.
He showed how a model no one holds is true does not work. 
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Sliver

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 08:08:22 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.
He just showed you how that would not work.
He showed how a model no one holds is true does not work. 
Um, no.  He provided a model, which any of us would be able to easily reproduce and test.  Give it a try and post your results.  If the FES model of the magnetic poles is correct, you should be able to easily prove it.  If not, then you'd have to admit the model is wrong.  Now, unless you're willing to actually show us your experiment that proves your model, you should probably stop denying the tests we provide you.

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 08:24:50 AM »
The south pole is below the north pole and visa verse.  This produces the field lines we see in experimentation or with a compass.
He just showed you how that would not work.
He showed how a model no one holds is true does not work. 
Um, no.  He provided a model, which any of us would be able to easily reproduce and test.  Give it a try and post your results.  If the FES model of the magnetic poles is correct, you should be able to easily prove it.  If not, then you'd have to admit the model is wrong.  Now, unless you're willing to actually show us your experiment that proves your model, you should probably stop denying the tests we provide you.

Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 08:49:02 AM »
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I put a big red X where the problem was.  In the disk model, your compass would have one point facing the sky (strongly opposed to the pole you're standing on) and the other point directly facing the ground (strongly attracted to it).  What we see instead is that the compass stays flat; this is contradictory to the disk model.

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 08:54:24 AM »
He just proved that those 'field lines' from FET would make a compass point directly up. Now, please be so kind as to explain your own theory with the same type of enthusiasm and undeniable proof please. And don't rely on "This will happen because I said so" because that doesn't fly anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

Now, When you children here who believe in your FET can reproduce your own findings with the scientific method, perhaps a scientist in the world would take you seriously... Maybe. As I said previously, it doesn't take a multi-million dollar trip to prove your findings that you cling to as "true".

Now, Quit claiming that you all are right and show us your facts. This is not how a scientific debate should go, this will get you laughed at in the eyes of the scientific community. You need proof, you need evidence, not theory. You need something that can be implemented in the real world and be tested over and over again to be true. "It'll point along the lines FET provides" does not cut it. Yeah, its a pretty little belief, but when it comes down to it, that's all it is unless you can show me hard evidence that that's how your lines work.

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 09:11:15 AM »
He just proved that those 'field lines' from FET would make a compass point directly up. Now, please be so kind as to explain your own theory with the same type of enthusiasm and undeniable proof please. And don't rely on "This will happen because I said so" because that doesn't fly anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html

Now, When you children here who believe in your FET can reproduce your own findings with the scientific method, perhaps a scientist in the world would take you seriously... Maybe. As I said previously, it doesn't take a multi-million dollar trip to prove your findings that you cling to as "true".

Now, Quit claiming that you all are right and show us your facts. This is not how a scientific debate should go, this will get you laughed at in the eyes of the scientific community. You need proof, you need evidence, not theory. You need something that can be implemented in the real world and be tested over and over again to be true. "It'll point along the lines FET provides" does not cut it. Yeah, its a pretty little belief, but when it comes down to it, that's all it is unless you can show me hard evidence that that's how your lines work.
Wow, I just have to say that. Your the first person to ever state how they always say "That wont work because the earth is flat." would never hold up.

But yes, pretty much what he said. If you guys can get us some actual evidence using the scientific method. Which is what we have -always- been asking from you guys for ages. We will acknolwedge it.
That would be a simulation of the fabric of space-time bending back upon itself

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 09:18:06 AM »
Thank you!

We don't want a mathematical equation. Because you can come up with any mathematical equation you want to try and disprove anything and everything. Your 1+1+more oneness theory simply states you can bend nearly any logical chain of events to your own will. No more math, We the Round Earthers demand you use a proven method to get factual, undeniable results for us to look at and say "Huh... Maybe they got' something here." Because guess what, until you pull away from your theory and run your own tests, You aren't going to change a single one of us... Become scientists, not Theorists. Then maybe we'll listen.

Please, For the love of God and your flat earth....

;D Convert Me  ;D
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 09:19:43 AM by justaquestion »

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 12:56:50 PM »
You are making huge assumptions about the depth of the poles and the rim-distance of the Antarctic that do no reflect the model.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 01:02:51 PM »
You are making huge assumptions about the depth of the poles and the rim-distance of the Antarctic that do no reflect the model.

What do you mean by the "depth" of the poles?  What are you referring to with "rim-distance?"
What "huge assumptions" have I made?  Point to them.

Edit: Does he mean radius or circumference with this "rim distance" business?

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flyingmonkey

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 06:40:31 PM »
The depth and rim-distance would not matter how large or small they are.

It just wouldn't work on a flat plane.

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Sliver

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »
You are making huge assumptions about the depth of the poles and the rim-distance of the Antarctic that do no reflect the model.
Show us an actual scientific experiment, preformed by you, that works they way you claim in your model, or admit your model is wrong.  If Ellipsis is wrong, prove him wrong.  Show the science that backs it up.

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Xerox

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 08:14:06 PM »
"This wouldn't work because I said so."

 ::)   ::)

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 05:34:10 AM »
You are making huge assumptions about the depth of the poles and the rim-distance of the Antarctic that do no reflect the model.
He's not making any HUGE assumptions, and as they said it would make no difference. And please were asking you as literal people here just start actually trying to prove to us your theory otherwise your not getting anywhere with anything.
That would be a simulation of the fabric of space-time bending back upon itself

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 11:22:40 PM »
I forgot to mention this in the original post, but the disk model also ONLY accounts for one aurora.  It doesn't account for both, as the FAQ pretend.  The opposing aurora would take place at the opposing side of the disk.  Considering we're able to see both a northern and southern aurora, it is also plainly evident the Earth can not be shaped like a disk (unless we're travelling to its underside unknowingly when we cross the equator).

We also wouldn't see them with anywhere near the same intensity if the sun were only on one side of this disk.

Edit:  Wow, still no FE'ers besides the suspiciously silent JD?

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General Disarray

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2010, 08:19:25 PM »
The only way I could see the FET model of magnetism working is if the north pole were a magnetic monopole, which can't exist.
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lossforwords21

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2010, 10:16:43 PM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2010, 11:03:57 PM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2010, 11:06:27 PM »
Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

Yeah, those damn gravitationalist, brain-using round-earthers!  We must break from their tyranny!

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Xerox

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2010, 06:16:15 AM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

Yes. Obviously, RE'ers just make stuff up.  Apparently you don't get out much.

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markjo

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 06:25:29 AM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

???  Are you saying that RE scientists don't observe data before drawing conclusions?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2010, 07:06:38 AM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

???  Are you saying that RE scientists don't observe data before drawing conclusions?
I'm saying the scientific method is based on first drawing your conclusion, then gathering data to test it and then confirming or denying it.  A more appropriate method would be to gather data and then draw a conclusion.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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markjo

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2010, 07:19:11 AM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

???  Are you saying that RE scientists don't observe data before drawing conclusions?
I'm saying the scientific method is based on first drawing your conclusion, then gathering data to test it and then confirming or denying it.  A more appropriate method would be to gather data and then draw a conclusion.
I'm sorry but I think that you're confusing "conclusion" with "hypothesis".  They are not the same thing.  A hypothesis is your best guess for the cause of a phenomenon.  A conclusion is what you draw after designing and performing an experiment to gather data and then analyzing the data. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2010, 07:24:19 AM »
No.  The scientific method involves forming a hypothesis about observed phenomena, then testing its accuracy.  It predicts happenings that we would observe if a potential conclusion were true.  It certainly doesn't begin by jumping to that conclusion and presupposing its actuality (and, as FE'ers do, avoiding all evidence to the contrary).  I suspect the fact that you'd pretend science acts that way is a projection of your own confirmation bias.

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John Davis

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2010, 07:59:04 AM »
Quote
Take out a compass and it will point along the field lines predicted by FET.

I'd say FET didn't 'predict' the field lines that a compass will point along. You most likely created field based off where a compass DOES point, and switched it around to make it seem like you predicted it, instead of the truth. That you gathered information based on where the compass pointed and twisted and input that information into your own theories. Good one. Pfft.
Obviously we observe data first then draw our conclusions, unlike the faulty RE science where one simply goes with ones gut instead of performing true science.

Once that is done we can indeed predict without prejudice to a round earthers whims or fantasies.

???  Are you saying that RE scientists don't observe data before drawing conclusions?
I'm saying the scientific method is based on first drawing your conclusion, then gathering data to test it and then confirming or denying it.  A more appropriate method would be to gather data and then draw a conclusion.
I'm sorry but I think that you're confusing "conclusion" with "hypothesis".  They are not the same thing.  A hypothesis is your best guess for the cause of a phenomenon.  A conclusion is what you draw after designing and performing an experiment to gather data and then analyzing the data. 
I realize this, but a best guess should not be made uneducated.  This is the issue.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Xerox

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Re: The Compass Doesn't Lie
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2010, 08:36:17 AM »
I realize this, but a best guess should not be made uneducated.  This is the issue.

And they're not. I don't know why you're making this assumption.