Author Topic: GPS. This has to be done.  (Read 15567 times)

Offline 2fst4u

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GPS. This has to be done.
« on: February 12, 2010, 10:33:08 PM »
GPS, Global Positioning System. We all know what it is and how it works. Only problem is the denial from FE'ers on the subject and simple shrugging off of the topic by going on about pseudolite crap. So here goes.

Everyone understands triangulation right? Knowing where something is by knowing it's distance from at least 3 points on a map, on a table, on the globe. On a 2d surface it's easy, we just draw a circle of specific radius around each point we know we are from. If your initial measurements were correct, you will get a point where all three intersect.

This image shows this (note, the 'rounded' triangle in the middle is our point. In this example, our measurements taken are not perfectly accurate and so our point is rather an overlap of all three.)


In 3d space it isn't that much harder. If we know our distance from 3 satellites, and how high the satellites are orbiting, we now have 4 points (the fourth being our altitude of zero. Alternatively, we know our distance from 4 satellites to know our 4 points).
We need this fourth point because we added a dimension to work with. If we don't add a fourth, we are left with two points where all three spheres overlap, one that is higher than the satellites' orbit, and one at ground level (or at our altitude if we are using 4 satellites). We aren't out in space, therefore we must be at the location which gives us our altitude of zero (with 3 satellites) or our actual altitude (with 4 satellites or more).

What's that you said? "How do we know our distance from each satellite though?" Well I'll tell you.

Each satellite knows the [atomic, yes, atomic] time and your receiver knows the time too [not quite atomic. This leads to errors. More expensive units just have more accurate clocks]. Your receiver sends out a "Hey satellites, I want this message back k?" message and the satellites in range will send it back. Your receiver figures out how long it took and therefore knows how far away it was [knowing the speed of light and Doppler effect on the specific radio frequency sent out etc]. To create redundancy [accuracy or backup], there should always be at least 7 (provided no obstructions) satellites in view.



Some smart guys sitting in computer labs in places around the USA monitor the satellites and make sure they are on path. Remember, a satellite will orbit the earth in a constant circle [sometimes oval] no matter how fast the earth is spinning. Therefore if we take into account the earth's rotation, each satellite makes a curved path along the ground (unless it orbits parallel to the earth's rotation).

"But why can't pseudolites exist then?" Well, that's because of the frequency used in GPS.

GPS actually uses 5 different frequencies. A couple are the actual navigation frequencies and the others are used for ionosphere research and even detection of nuclear detonation to ensure treaties are being adhered to. All of these frequencies lie between 1575.42 MHz -1176.45 MHz placing them in the UHF range.

So?

Well, UHF relies on line of sight. You might not be able to see satellites at daytime due to the 'blueness' of the sky (refraction of visible wavebands) but they are there, and at night time, you can [sometimes] see them. Radio masts like those claimed to be pseudolites are not line of sight and cannot (repeat, cannot) possibly give any indication of distance due to their waves bouncing off the ionosphere and therefore not travelling in a straight line. If we could stay in line of sight, sure it might work. But how many radio masts can you see in any direction right now? (I can’t see any, but my GPS still tells me where I am)

But if the earth is actually flat, wouldn’t these radio waves just go straight?

Yea, but 'bendy light theory' bends all wavelengths equally [apparently] so no radio waves will reach you in a straight line [in FET]. Besides, in a valley you can still get GPS reception so the signals must be coming back from the sky. This leads us to the conclusion that satellites must exist because they are the only possible way for a GPS to work. And as I'm sure we can all figure out, for satellites to exist, they need to be suspended in orbit around a spherical earth. Nail in the coffin.

Tl;dr this if you want, FE’ers. It’ll only harm your integrity. Feel free to dispute anything I have said.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:56:44 PM by 2fst4u »

Offline Thermal Detonator

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2010, 03:03:43 AM »
In summary: another win for RE  ;D
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

Offline SeductaS

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2010, 05:17:24 AM »
Anxiously waiting for FE replies :D

Offline WardoggKC130FE

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2010, 05:17:52 AM »
Yes the satellite GPS theory works wonderfully, they really did their homework on this one.  The question is can it be done with ground based towers? Sending out false signals about the amount of visible satellites and whatnot.  If the answer is yes your loooong post and pretty pictures actually prove nothing.

Offline Thermal Detonator

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 07:06:44 AM »
Yes the satellite GPS theory works wonderfully, they really did their homework on this one.  The question is can it be done with ground based towers? Sending out false signals about the amount of visible satellites and whatnot.  If the answer is yes your loooong post and pretty pictures actually prove nothing.

No, it can't. My GPS receiver actually shows a graph of the satellites and where they are moving. See also that they work in valleys well out of line of site from towers.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

Offline 2fst4u

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 01:49:34 PM »
Yes the satellite GPS theory works wonderfully, they really did their homework on this one.  The question is can it be done with ground based towers? Sending out false signals about the amount of visible satellites and whatnot.  If the answer is yes your loooong post and pretty pictures actually prove nothing.
second to last and last paragraphs


So?

Well, UHF relies on line of sight. You might not be able to see satellites at daytime due to the 'blueness' of the sky (refraction of visible wavebands) but they are there, and at night time, you can [sometimes] see them. Radio masts like those claimed to be pseudolites are not line of sight and cannot (repeat, cannot) possibly give any indication of distance due to their waves bouncing off the ionosphere and therefore not travelling in a straight line. If we could stay in line of sight, sure it might work. But how many radio masts can you see in any direction right now? (I can’t see any, but my GPS still tells me where I am)

But if the earth is actually flat, wouldn’t these radio waves just go straight?

Yea, but 'bendy light theory' bends all wavelengths equally [apparently] so no radio waves will reach you in a straight line [in FET]. Besides, in a valley you can still get GPS reception so the signals must be coming back from the sky. This leads us to the conclusion that satellites must exist because they are the only possible way for a GPS to work. And as I'm sure we can all figure out, for satellites to exist, they need to be suspended in orbit around a spherical earth. Nail in the coffin.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:56:56 PM by 2fst4u »

Offline 2fst4u

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2010, 06:34:26 PM »
I find this hilarious. The first forum-based version of 'speechlessness' I've ever seen.

Offline 2fst4u

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 11:35:30 PM »
The question is can it be done with ground based towers?

The answer is no. The signals are above you, the signals are often received out of sight of any towers, and the signals are too few to be covered by towers.

GPS has been covered before. They just bullshit and derail their way out of it. Try to get the lulz early if you can.
I covered it in original post.

But for that sake of being asses, all RE'ers need to keep this topic alive until an FE'er tries to dispute it. I'm quite proud of myself for this I have to say.

Offline jimspade

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 03:15:21 AM »
Yes the satellite GPS theory works wonderfully, they really did their homework on this one.  The question is can it be done with ground based towers? Sending out false signals about the amount of visible satellites and whatnot.  If the answer is yes your loooong post and pretty pictures actually prove nothing.

How would this work on the ocean. Also the burdon to prove the negative is on you since you're the one disputing it.
It was Tom Bishop that said those ridiculous things, he is the ultimate foe in regards to FE trolls.

Offline Lachlan

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 03:18:52 AM »
I agree, we have nothing to prove for anything on this site. It is accepted fact that the world is round, and they are disputing that. Therefore we don't have to prove anything- the burden is on the FE'ers to prove US wrong. So WE set the parameters of accepted evidence and their bullshit rule of not accepting photographic evidence is unacceptable. If that makes sense.

Another win for RE, and another epic fail for FE.

Offline WardoggKC130FE

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 05:21:21 AM »
HF radios work out over the middle of the ocean.  What exactly is impossible about that?

Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 05:34:18 AM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Offline markjo

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 08:26:19 AM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

How about the fact that anyone who is clever enough can go out and buy the proper equipment in order to track the moving signals and decode the publicly available information within those signals?  Sounds like something that a Zetetic would want to try for them self.
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Offline Thermal Detonator

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 10:00:48 AM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

So you haven't read the OP then?
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

Offline 2fst4u

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 11:33:13 AM »
HF radios work out over the middle of the ocean.  What exactly is impossible about that?
HF!= UHF. They have similar names but come under comepletely different classes. UHF is line of sight, HF will infact diffract quite a bit more. But as I said, this would not help to give any indication of distance as the waves trying to reach you via diffraction, are being distorted and aren't line of sight.

GPS doesn't rely on line of sight because of the waves it uses. It uses UHFbecause it needs to be line of sight in order for the concept of triangulation to work.

Offline Lachlan

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 12:01:31 PM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

There's more evidence to back up the RE theory than the FE theory. I have seen no concrete evidence from you (apart from theories) so it's a bit rich to ask someone else for concrete evidence and dismiss their logical explanation as theory.

Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 02:09:27 PM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

How about the fact that anyone who is clever enough can go out and buy the proper equipment in order to track the moving signals and decode the publicly available information within those signals?  Sounds like something that a Zetetic would want to try for them self.


Sounds like somebody should try doing it and then get back to us with the results.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Offline Lachlan

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2010, 02:10:15 PM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

How about the fact that anyone who is clever enough can go out and buy the proper equipment in order to track the moving signals and decode the publicly available information within those signals?  Sounds like something that a Zetetic would want to try for them self.


Sounds like somebody should try doing it and then get back to us with the results.

Why don't you do it, seeing as you are the one who thinks the earth is flat.

Offline markjo

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2010, 04:44:13 PM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

How about the fact that anyone who is clever enough can go out and buy the proper equipment in order to track the moving signals and decode the publicly available information within those signals?  Sounds like something that a Zetetic would want to try for them self.

Sounds like somebody should try doing it and then get back to us with the results.

Unfortunately, I'm not that clever.  :'(
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Offline 2fst4u

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Re: GPS. This has to be done.
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2010, 04:47:28 PM »
This is a fascinating exposition on RET, but I don't actually see any evidence that backs up either theory.

How about the fact that anyone who is clever enough can go out and buy the proper equipment in order to track the moving signals and decode the publicly available information within those signals?  Sounds like something that a Zetetic would want to try for them self.


Sounds like somebody should try doing it and then get back to us with the results.
GO STAND IN A VALLEY OUTSIDE WITH A STANDARD GPS DEVICE, IF IT WORKS, FET IS DISPROVED. Satellites must therefore exist and orbit the earth, making it round.