Modern Science = BS

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Tom Bishop

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Modern Science = BS
« on: November 16, 2009, 12:40:34 AM »
In his work "Earth Not a Globe" Samuel Birley Rowbothatam said that true science begins to seek before all else, to discover the true mysteries of the universe without relying on any particular hypothesis or preconception.

This momentous concept from the past has many ramifications and, when considered carefully, actually destroys today's modern science as we know it.

Do you remember how Stephen Hawking proudly and famously said that he "stands on the shoulders of giants"? Think about this concept very carefully. He was really saying that all he was doing was building one unprovable hypothesis upon another to explain phenomena with a nod and a wink.

Also known as "bullshitting your way to the top."

Scientists are actually nothing more than really good bullshitters!

Once you accept this fact then think carefully about the ramifications this has, and whether it applies only to theoretical physicists.

Chemists? Check. No one can even tell me whether atoms even exist or not! (may exist as waves)

Sociologists? Check.

Psychologists? Check.

Now what about entire scientific organizations?

How about government funded scientific organizations?

All of these years, for thousands of years, people have blindly followed expert bullshitters like dogs to their master's whistle.

Sort of turns your entire concept of the world upside down. What do we truly know about anything?

Perhaps there is a very good reason why the word for "science" prior to the mid 1800's was "philosophy".
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:07:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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EireEngineer

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 07:14:43 AM »
In his work "Earth Not a Globe" Samuel Birley Rowbothatam said that true science begins to seek before all else, to discover the true mysteries of the universe without relying on any particular hypothesis or preconception.

This momentous concept from the past has many ramifications and actually destroys today's modern science as we know it.

Do you remember how Stephen Hawking proudly and famously said that he "stood on the shoulders of giants"? Think about that concept very carefully. He was really saying that all he was doing was building one unprovable hypothesis upon the next to explain phenomena with a nod and a wink.

Also known as "bullshitting your way to the top."

Scientists are actually nothing more than really good bullshitters!

Once you accept this fact then think carefully about the ramifications this has, and whether it applies only to theoretical physicists.

Chemists? Check. No one can even tell me whether atoms even exist or not! (may exist as waves)

Sociologists? Check.

Psychologists? Check.

Now what about entire scientific organizations?

How about government funded scientific organizations?

All of these years, for thousands of years, people have blindly followed expert bullshitters like dogs to their master's whistle.

Sort of turns your entire concept of the world upside down. What do we truly know about anything?

Perhaps there is a very good reason why the word for "science" prior to the mid 1800's was "philosophy".
What a gross misunderstanding of Hawking's statement. You truly have no concept of how the process of science works and have obviously never done any experimentation yourself.  Hawking really does stand on the shoulders of giants, men who dispelled mysticism with rational thought, observation and experimentation, and all without the benefits of modern technology to assist them.  Look around you.  Every appliance in your home, the car that you drive, even the computer you use to spout off your drivel is the direct result of generations and generations of people with an inquisitive and rational mind attempting to understand the universe around them. If you want expert bullshitters, look directly at any religious organization.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 07:47:58 AM »
Quote
What a gross misunderstanding of Hawking's statement. You truly have no concept of how the process of science works and have obviously never done any experimentation yourself.  

Hawking didn't do any experimentation on the universe from his wheelchair when coming up with his "metric expansion of space-time" to explain why the stars look like they're accelerating away from each other. We all know that.

Another nod and a wink.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:27:26 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 08:20:46 AM »
Another clue to the transparency of his quote:

He cannot stand!

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 10:34:34 AM »
Newton said that.
I spent all of 5 minutes learning about bloody gods just before the exam and its bloody qeistions on fox hunting and abortions.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 01:30:57 PM »
Newton said it and Hawking repeated it under his own name.

See the underlining scientific implications here?

The direct quote is actually in the first line of his book "A Brief History of Time".

Also,

« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 06:07:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 02:04:56 PM »
Another thing to reflect on what Rowbotham was getting at:

If you're building one hypothesis upon another unproven one, you don't exactly care what the real truth of the matter is, do you?

And if you don't care, you must be bullshitting.

Scientists are expert bullshitters!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 12:39:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 02:10:18 PM »
Can we have thread back plz.
I spent all of 5 minutes learning about bloody gods just before the exam and its bloody qeistions on fox hunting and abortions.

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Crustinator

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 03:22:56 PM »
Hawking didn't do any experimentation on the universe from his wheelchair when coming up with his "metric expansion of space-time" hypothesis to explain why the stars look like they're accelerating away from each other. We all know that.

Another nod and a wink.

When you're experimenting on the universe, being in a wheelchair is neither hindrance nor boon.

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Mykael

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 04:35:51 PM »

Do you remember how Stephen Hawking proudly and famously said that he "stands on the shoulders of giants"? Think about that concept very carefully. He was really saying that all he was doing was building one unprovable hypothesis upon another to explain phenomena with a nod and a wink.

Also known as "bullshitting your way to the top."

And you'd be absolutely correct, Tom.

You would be, that is, if the theories that scientists built upon weren't well supported with evidence and observation. Keep this sort of stuff to CN, would you?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 04:37:44 PM by Mykael »

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trig

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 05:05:04 PM »
This is a very important step for Tom Bishop: he has taken his place as an anti-science thinker, and as such his opinions must not be subject to the same standards as the opinions of scientists and engineers.

Every time Tom Bishop speaks he is showing what is in his mind, and his mind alone. Therefore he cannot be that his ideas are wrong, or unsound, or even poorly developed. His opinions are what they are, a peek into Tom Bishop's way of thinking. The only thing we can do is remind him of this fact every time he tries to incorporate science into what he says.

Now that we have that clear, what importance can someone's opinion have when we can either hear him or take into account every advancement done in the last 400 years or so?

Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 05:21:28 PM »
Another thing to reinforce what Rowbotham was getting at:

If you're building one hypothesis upon another unproven one, you don't actually care what the real truth of the matter is, do you?

As in UA, bendy light, 32mi diameter sun, upwards accelerating earth?
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 08:47:13 PM »
This is a very important step for Tom Bishop: he has taken his place as an anti-science thinker, and as such his opinions must not be subject to the same standards as the opinions of scientists and engineers.

Every time Tom Bishop speaks he is showing what is in his mind, and his mind alone. Therefore he cannot be that his ideas are wrong, or unsound, or even poorly developed. His opinions are what they are, a peek into Tom Bishop's way of thinking. The only thing we can do is remind him of this fact every time he tries to incorporate science into what he says.

Now that we have that clear, what importance can someone's opinion have when we can either hear him or take into account every advancement done in the last 400 years or so?

It's not anti-science. Stephen Hawking is the "anti-scientist" here. He choose to stand on the shoulders of giants and build one unprovable hypothesis upon another.

Samuel Birley Rowbotham began afresh by putting fundamental inquiry beyond all else, to seek to discover the true mysteries of the universe without putting the pretense of his inquiries on top of any particular hypothesis.

That's what you do if you want to know the truth.

If you do not want to know the truth, you do what Stephen Hawking did.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:23:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 09:00:01 PM »
As in UA, bendy light, 32mi diameter sun, upwards accelerating earth?

Most of those things were done by others after Rowbotham's time. The people who proposed those things were well indoctrinated by the anti-science school systems to put hypothesis first and build off of that (Think back to the Scientific Method charts at school - they deliberately tell you to build off of a hypothesis first!)

There's actually nothing about UA, the bending of light, or the upwards acceleration of the earth in Rowbotham's book Earth Not a Globe.

Earth Not a Globe starts science afresh from the ground up. Whenever Rowbotham runs against something immediately unexplainable, such as the contraction and expansion of the sun's path over the year he says loudly and with great pride:

    That such is the sun's annual course is demonstrable by actual observation; but if it is asked why it traverses such a peculiarly concentric path, no practical answer can be given, and no theory or speculation can be tolerated. At no distant period perhaps, we may have collected sufficient matter-of-fact evidence to enable us to understand it; but until that occurs, the Zetetic process only permits us to say:--"The peculiar motion is visible to us, but, of the cause, at present we are ignorant."

That is what you do when you run up against a problem. You do not go off and make up a rapid series of unprovable hypothesis' and build them one on top of another in rapid succession like we know who.

Hawking is the philosopher. Rowbotham is the scientist. And science always wins.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:44:33 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Mykael

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 09:47:18 PM »
In what way are the currently accepted scientific theories "unprovable"?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 10:07:21 PM »
In what way are the currently accepted scientific theories "unprovable"?

The metric expansion of space-time as an explanation for why the stars appear to be moving away from each other isn't a provable hypothesis. That's just an interpretation as the result of an observation.

No experiment can be done to demonstrate the validity of metric space-time expansion. No experiment will be attempted. Necessity denied entirely. The hypothesis is no more valid than a fleet of sub-atomic fairies pushing the stars away.

You might say "well, it's only a hypothesis".

But when you seek to imagine, you automatically seek to deny the necessity for truth, choosing your own fanciful imagination over the truth of the matter.

Hawking chose his imagination over truth!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:30:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Mykael

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 10:57:21 PM »
In what way are the currently accepted scientific theories "unprovable"?

The metric expansion of space-time for a reason why the stars appear to be moving away from each other isn't a provable hypothesis. That's just an interpretation as the result of an observation.

No experiment can be done to demonstrate the validity of metric space-time expansion. No experiment will be attempted. The hypothesis is no more valid than a fleet of sub-atomic fairies pushing the stars away.

You might say "well it's only a hypothesis".

But when you seek to imagine, you automatically seek to deny the necessity for truth, choosing your own fanciful imagination over the truth of the matter.

Hawking chose his imagination over truth!
It's a feasible explanation based on known laws of the universe.
Hawking did not choose imagination over truth. You seem to be woefully ignorant of how science operates.

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Raist

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 11:14:29 PM »
Hawking didn't do any experimentation on the universe from his wheelchair when coming up with his "metric expansion of space-time" hypothesis to explain why the stars look like they're accelerating away from each other. We all know that.

Another nod and a wink.

When you're experimenting on the universe, being in a wheelchair is neither hindrance nor boon.

I bet you 20 bucks stephen hawking considers it a hindrance.

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Moon squirter

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 12:25:44 AM »
Tom,

I cannot believe you are still confused about Theoretical Physics.  The clue's in the name, dumbo.  There's no pretense.

Theoretical Physics is a branch of science, not the other way around.  Please educate yourself before you mislead others.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 01:46:01 AM »
Tom,

I cannot believe you are still confused about Theoretical Physics.  The clue's in the name, dumbo.  There's no pretense.

I don't care. "Theoretical" does not give it a free pass. Chemistry, Psychology, and all other parts of our sciences have us start by building off of a hypothesis.

Look up the Scientific Method Chart. They even have children do it.

The science teacher doesn't care if you're wrong. He just cares whether you're following the "Scientific" Method or not. I put "Scientific" in quotes because there is nothing at all scientific about our science staring off on a fantasy.

If you neglect to make a hypothesis and build off of it on your science report, you get knocked a mark and a big red "Where is the hypothesis???" across the front of your paper. A punch in the face from the education system itself.

Before you dare call anyone "anti-science" again, look in the mirror.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:20:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Pete

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 01:54:19 AM »
Tom,

I cannot believe you are still confused about Theoretical Physics.  The clue's in the name, dumbo.  There's no pretense.

I don't care. "Theoretical" does not give it a free pass. Chemistry, Psychology, and all other parts of our sciences have us start by building off of a hypothesis.


Feel free to propose a reasonable alternative anytime now....  ::)

I'd be fascinated to hear how you'll have science work without formulating a hypothesis. Do you even know what a hypothesis is?

Look up the Scientific Method Chart. They even have children do it.

Yeah... and its worked for several centuries now in the field of medicine. If the scientific method is so flawed, why does it work so well?

The science teacher doesn't care if you're wrong. He just cares whether you're following the "Scientific" Method or not.

If you understood how the Scientific Method worked, you'd realize how utterly stupid and contradictory that statement is. The Scientific method is all about making sure your hypothesis is consistent with the the observations, and all empirical knowledge.

I put "Scientific" method in quotes because there is nothing at all scientific about our science staring off on a fantasy.

Correction. You put scientific inside quotes because you wanted to make an ad hominem

Before you dare call anyone "anti-science" again, look in the mirror.

*looks in the mirror*

Tom Bishop is anti-science. That's painfully obvious to anyone who has taken junior high science.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 02:56:32 AM »
Quote
Feel free to propose a reasonable alternative anytime now....  ::)

Try reading the first chapter of Earth Not a Globe!

Quote
Yeah... and its worked for several centuries now in the field of medicine. If the scientific method is so flawed, why does it work so well?

Uh, they don't put hypothesis first when mixing new medicines.

When they want to know how different chemicals will react to red blood cells, for example, they create rooms and rooms of vials which test each and every result for the desired cause.

They do the same with the "Folding at Home" project. It tests each and every possibility methodically to find a suitable result.

There aren't any hypothesis' when it comes to medicine. When you want results you start with the experiment stage first, conclusions after. That's how you find the truth. Samuel Birley Rowbotham knew this very well.

Modern Medicine is actually a Zetetic Science which Doctor Samuel Birley Rowbotham even helped to establish his very own self.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:05:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2009, 02:58:02 AM »
Quote
If you understood how the Scientific Method worked, you'd realize how utterly stupid and contradictory that statement is. The Scientific method is all about making sure your hypothesis is consistent with the the observations, and all empirical knowledge.

The Scientific Method is about making up a hypothesis and then building off of that. Any child knows that you get marked down a grade if you put your experiment before your hypothesis.

The steps have us use our imagination as a pretense rather than the reality of our physical world!

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Moon squirter

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 02:59:25 AM »
Tom,

I cannot believe you are still confused about Theoretical Physics.  The clue's in the name, dumbo.  There's no pretense.

I don't care. "Theoretical" does not give it a free pass. Chemistry, Psychology, and all other parts of our sciences have us start by building off of a hypothesis.

Look up the Scientific Method Chart. They even have children do it.

The science teacher doesn't care if you're wrong. He just cares whether you're following the "Scientific" Method or not. I put "Scientific" method in quotes because there is nothing at all scientific about our science staring off on a fantasy.

If you neglect to make a hypothesis and build off of it on your science report, you get knocked a mark and a big red "Where is the hypothesis???" across the front of your paper. A punch in the face from the education system itself.

Before you dare call anyone "anti-science" again, look in the mirror.

You've never actually got it, have you Tom?  It's not the hypothesis, it's the testing, analysis and peer review that's important.  A hypothesis is only an idea that has not been scrutinised and verified;  It can be absolutely anything you like.  It just needs to stand up.

Tellingly, Rowbothem's incomplete work has not been revised and expanded upon by anyone for 100 years.  Rowbothem did not understand geometry, trigonometry or refraction.  His pathetic pamphlet actually fails at the hypothesis stage (yes, he did set out to prove the world was flat), because the ideas are incomplete and flawed, with no mathematical model.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 03:04:14 AM by Moon squirter »
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Moon squirter

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 03:09:33 AM »

The Scientific Method is about making up a hypothesis and then building off of that, testing, validating and confirming (or rejecting) it. Any child knows that you get marked down a grade if you put your experiment before your hypothesis, which is in logically correct as you need to be testing an idea in order to "experiment" in the first place.

Fix for you, Tom
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2009, 03:24:52 AM »
You've never actually got it, have you Tom?  It's not the hypothesis, it's the testing, analysis and peer review that's important.  A hypothesis is only an idea that has not been scrutinised and verified;  It can be absolutely anything you like.  It just needs to stand up.

Tellingly, Rowbothem's incomplete work has not been revised and expanded upon by anyone for 100 years.  Rowbothem did not understand geometry, trigonometry or refraction.  His pathetic pamphlet actually fails at the hypothesis stage (yes, he did set out to prove the world was flat), because the ideas are incomplete and flawed, with no mathematical model.

Wrong. With Rowbotham's work he jumps directly to experimentation and provides conclusions, after.  

With Hawking & Co. the philosophy is to put the hypothesis first and then simply build another hypothesis!! Never once is an experiment conducted.

Here are the respective scientific models of these two men --

Rowbotham:

    Experiment -> Experiment -> Experiment -> Conclusion

Hawking:

    Hypothesis -> Hypothesis -> Hypothesis -> Hypothesis

As you can see, there is a slight difference.

Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2009, 04:25:08 AM »

That is what you do when you run up against a problem. You do not go off and make up a rapid series of unprovable hypothesis' and build them one on top of another in rapid succession like we know who.

As in UA, bendy light, upwards accelerating earth, 32 mi diameter sun.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 05:02:06 AM »
Though looking at the text, nothing seems to indicate that Robo was going in with pre-conceived notions.  There is nothing that he is trying to disprove.

The first chapter on the earth doesn't start off trying to disporve anything:

Quote
IF the earth is a globe, and is 25,000 English statute miles in circumference, the surface of all standing water must have a certain degree of convexity--every part must be an arc of a circle

And he seems to be completely unbiased and not looking for any specific outcome (He even YELLS ONE OF HIS STATEMENTS.  The only thing that would have made that one better is if it ended with !!!!!1) :
Quote
Such a result is utterly destructive of the idea of the earth's possible rotation.
these causes, or conditions, or motion in the earth, do not exist.

Quote
On making the most exact experiments, however, no such effect is observed; and, therefore, the conclusion is in every sense unavoidable, that THE EARTH HAS NO MOTION OF ROTATION

Quote
these causes, or conditions, or motion in the earth, do not exist.
p195
Were it not that this work is avowedly astronomical and philosophical, it could easily be shown here that far above the sun, moon, and stars, and beyond the region of electric, magnetic, and other active subtleties, there is a fountain, an infinite conservatory of realities, as much more subtle than electric and magnetic entities, as these are than, the solid elements of the earth; and from which man receives all that makes him better than a demon, and enables and helps him to a god-like existence, whilst below the concrete

p. 196

world of earth and water, a region of fiery decomposition and destruction exists, and whence originate realities--subtleties more subtle than gaseous and electric elements, and which pollute and ruin the great bulk of humanity.

Uh, what?
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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Moon squirter

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2009, 05:12:57 AM »
You've never actually got it, have you Tom?  It's not the hypothesis, it's the testing, analysis and peer review that's important.  A hypothesis is only an idea that has not been scrutinised and verified;  It can be absolutely anything you like.  It just needs to stand up.

Tellingly, Rowbothem's incomplete work has not been revised and expanded upon by anyone for 100 years.  Rowbothem did not understand geometry, trigonometry or refraction.  His pathetic pamphlet actually fails at the hypothesis stage (yes, he did set out to prove the world was flat), because the ideas are incomplete and flawed, with no mathematical model.

Wrong. With Rowbotham's work he jumps directly to experimentation and provides conclusions, after.  

With Hawking & Co. the philosophy is to put the hypothesis first and then simply build another hypothesis!! Never once is an experiment conducted.

Here are the respective scientific models of these two men --

Rowbotham:

    Experiment -> Experiment -> Experiment -> Conclusion

Hawking:

    Hypothesis -> Hypothesis -> Hypothesis -> Hypothesis

As you can see, there is a slight difference.

It's all T-H-E-O-R-E-T-I-C-A-L, remember.   You're quite welcome to submit a paper of your own which blasts Hawking's "house of cards" into oblivion, but I guess you're just being polite to the guy in the wheelchair!

In Earth not a Globe experiment 1, Rowbothem sets out to detect a curve in the surface of the earth.   This is clearly hypothesising that the earth is flat, because he has set up a falsifiable experiment to detect a curvature (which does not take refraction into account BTW).  You see, it is quite difficult to conduct a meaningful experiment without testing an idea.  Otherwise it's an observation.

Rowbothem does hypothesise, but he's too stupid to realise.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Modern Science = BS
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2009, 06:58:09 AM »
Stop using Rowbotham as an example,anyway; all of his experiments are easily falsifiable.
I spent all of 5 minutes learning about bloody gods just before the exam and its bloody qeistions on fox hunting and abortions.