Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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Tausami

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1950 on: May 05, 2013, 03:39:43 PM »
You guys are using your bias to miss the point. If you leave dangerous things out, bad things can happen. It is not the fault of the dangerous thing, rather it is the fault of who ever left them out.

Again, the intended use of the item is an important factor.

Anyway, can we discuss the fact that 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides?
So it's ok if I leave a beaker of acid out unlabeled next to a beaker of sodium cyanide? After all, sodium cyanide is used to extract gold so it's safe.

No. That's negligence. Obviously.

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katsung47

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1951 on: May 21, 2013, 02:54:54 PM »
DOJ Memo: Outlaw and Confiscate All Guns

Kurt Nimmo
 Infowars.com   February 24, 2013
The National Rifle Association has obtained a Department of Justice memo calling for national gun registration and confiscation. The nine page “cursory summary” on current gun control initiatives was not officially released by the Obama administration.
 
The DOJ memo (downloadable here as a PDF) states the administration “believes that a gun ban will not work without mandatory gun confiscation,” according to the NRA, and thinks universal background checks “won’t work without requiring national gun registration.” Obama has yet to publicly support national registration or firearms confiscation, although the memo reveals his administration is moving in that direction.
 
The memo stands in stark contrast to the administration’s public stance on so-called gun control. White House spokesman Jay Carney said last month that laws proposed by Obama would not “take away a gun from a single law-abiding American.”
 
The NRA declined to explain how it obtained the document. The memo was written by the acting director of the Justice Department’s National Institute of Justice, Greg Ridgeway. It is dated January 4, two weeks before Obama mounted his attack on the Second Amendment following the Sandy Hook massacre. Ridgeway came to the Justice Department from the RAND corporation.
 http://www.infowars.com/doj-memo-outlaw-and-confiscate-all-guns/

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Junker

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1952 on: May 21, 2013, 02:58:43 PM »
DOJ Memo: Outlaw and Confiscate All Guns

Kurt Nimmo
 Infowars.com   February 24, 2013
The National Rifle Association has obtained a Department of Justice memo calling for national gun registration and confiscation. The nine page “cursory summary” on current gun control initiatives was not officially released by the Obama administration.
 
The DOJ memo (downloadable here as a PDF) states the administration “believes that a gun ban will not work without mandatory gun confiscation,” according to the NRA, and thinks universal background checks “won’t work without requiring national gun registration.” Obama has yet to publicly support national registration or firearms confiscation, although the memo reveals his administration is moving in that direction.
 
The memo stands in stark contrast to the administration’s public stance on so-called gun control. White House spokesman Jay Carney said last month that laws proposed by Obama would not “take away a gun from a single law-abiding American.”
 
The NRA declined to explain how it obtained the document. The memo was written by the acting director of the Justice Department’s National Institute of Justice, Greg Ridgeway. It is dated January 4, two weeks before Obama mounted his attack on the Second Amendment following the Sandy Hook massacre. Ridgeway came to the Justice Department from the RAND corporation.
 http://www.infowars.com/doj-memo-outlaw-and-confiscate-all-guns/

I thoroughly enjoy a good copypasta.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1953 on: May 21, 2013, 03:30:44 PM »
I missed the part in that memo where it discussed banning guns outright.

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Junker

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1954 on: May 21, 2013, 03:32:39 PM »
I missed the part in that memo where it discussed banning guns outright.

The "source" is infowars.  The same folks who suggested Seth MacFarlane was complicit in the Boston attacks.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1955 on: May 21, 2013, 03:41:24 PM »
Actually, the source is the NRA.  But they have about the same credibility as InfoWars, anyway.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1956 on: May 21, 2013, 09:49:54 PM »
Because our guns played an essential role in our country's founding, which really wasn't too long ago.

Your guns are playing a huge part in the downfall of your society, which is now.

Please explain.

You think it's right for a society to arm teachers or have armed guards in schools because they need to be defended in that way?

You think it's right for a society to be so paranoid that they have to 'arm' themselves, just in case something happens?
Or... I'm asking you to explain how guns are causing the downfall of society....

As for societies arming themselves in case something happens:

That has been the case throughout history. I don't see it as paranoid at all. Humans are an inherently violent people and citizens taking up arms has been one of the cornerstones of defense since the beginning of history.

What you're doing is arming for a possible civil war. How can that not be a sign of an unstable and paranoid society, which in the end will lead to its downfall?

Could you please explain how guns are the downfall of our society? Or did you just say that to say it?

I don't think anyone is arming for a civil war. We've already been through that once, and nobody had a good time.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1957 on: May 22, 2013, 12:12:37 AM »
Because our guns played an essential role in our country's founding, which really wasn't too long ago.

Your guns are playing a huge part in the downfall of your society, which is now.

Please explain.

You think it's right for a society to arm teachers or have armed guards in schools because they need to be defended in that way?

You think it's right for a society to be so paranoid that they have to 'arm' themselves, just in case something happens?
Or... I'm asking you to explain how guns are causing the downfall of society....

As for societies arming themselves in case something happens:

That has been the case throughout history. I don't see it as paranoid at all. Humans are an inherently violent people and citizens taking up arms has been one of the cornerstones of defense since the beginning of history.

What you're doing is arming for a possible civil war. How can that not be a sign of an unstable and paranoid society, which in the end will lead to its downfall?

Could you please explain how guns are the downfall of our society? Or did you just say that to say it?

I don't think anyone is arming for a civil war. We've already been through that once, and nobody had a good time.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

If you're saying that's no longer necessary, then I suggest the constitution needs amending.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1958 on: May 22, 2013, 09:33:23 PM »
Because our guns played an essential role in our country's founding, which really wasn't too long ago.

Your guns are playing a huge part in the downfall of your society, which is now.

Please explain.

You think it's right for a society to arm teachers or have armed guards in schools because they need to be defended in that way?

You think it's right for a society to be so paranoid that they have to 'arm' themselves, just in case something happens?
Or... I'm asking you to explain how guns are causing the downfall of society....

As for societies arming themselves in case something happens:

That has been the case throughout history. I don't see it as paranoid at all. Humans are an inherently violent people and citizens taking up arms has been one of the cornerstones of defense since the beginning of history.

What you're doing is arming for a possible civil war. How can that not be a sign of an unstable and paranoid society, which in the end will lead to its downfall?

Could you please explain how guns are the downfall of our society? Or did you just say that to say it?

I don't think anyone is arming for a civil war. We've already been through that once, and nobody had a good time.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

If you're saying that's no longer necessary, then I suggest the constitution needs amending.

Well unless a civil war and a revolution are the exact same thing, I'm not sure you're right.

If they were literally the same phrase then you would have definitely gotten me there.



On a different note, it is a good thing there aren't guns in Britain. It keeps murders from happening in public.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938784/You-and-your-kids-are-next.html

Good thing no law abiding citizens had access to guns here, they might have shot the poor muslim man wielding a non threatening perfectly legal cleaver.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1959 on: May 23, 2013, 12:04:17 AM »

Well unless a civil war and a revolution are the exact same thing, I'm not sure you're right.

If they were literally the same phrase then you would have definitely gotten me there.



On a different note, it is a good thing there aren't guns in Britain. It keeps murders from happening in public.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938784/You-and-your-kids-are-next.html

Good thing no law abiding citizens had access to guns here, they might have shot the poor muslim man wielding a non threatening perfectly legal cleaver.

Revolution and civil war? Why would either of them be any better than the other within the context?

And how often do you think that happens in the UK?

This is just speculation, but if those two people had better access to firearms, an assault rifle for instance, instead of a machete and a hand gun (which I don't think worked, may have been fake) etc... do you think that situation might have been worse?

If anything it's a proponent for stricter gun control; it shows it works.

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John Michell

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1960 on: May 23, 2013, 07:04:58 AM »
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1961 on: May 23, 2013, 10:55:49 AM »
Well unless a civil war and a revolution are the exact same thing, I'm not sure you're right.

If they were literally the same phrase then you would have definitely gotten me there.

They usually are, one side usually considers the war a civil war, while the other considers it a revolution.  Some people side with the established government, calling the other side rebels.  The other side fights the government as part of a revolutionary movement, calling the other side loyalists/tyrannical.  Then whichever side wins the conflict also usually gets the name they wanted for it, wither successfully crushing the "rebelion", or successfully orchestrating a "revolution."  Its why names like "The War for Southern Freedom" are a bit taboo, it means you likely thought the south should win the war/was within its rights.


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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1962 on: May 23, 2013, 11:34:25 AM »
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime.

I don't disagree with the first part, but if a criminal tried to get a gun in the UK it would be a hell of a lot harder and more expensive. They'd have to go through a lot effort which means the average criminal in the UK doesn't have a gun; it's too hard and expensive to acquire one.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:54:22 AM by DDDDAts all folks »

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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1963 on: May 23, 2013, 04:29:21 PM »
Clearly the laws in an island country smaller than most U.S. states could easily be applied elsewhere!

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1964 on: May 23, 2013, 05:33:05 PM »
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime.

I don't disagree with the first part, but if a criminal tried to get a gun in the UK it would be a hell of a lot harder and more expensive. They'd have to go through a lot effort which means the average criminal in the UK doesn't have a gun; it's too hard and expensive to acquire one.

It is against the law for criminals to buy guns in the US too.  Criminals, however, do not, by nature, follow the law. 

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1965 on: May 23, 2013, 10:50:48 PM »
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime.

I don't disagree with the first part, but if a criminal tried to get a gun in the UK it would be a hell of a lot harder and more expensive. They'd have to go through a lot effort which means the average criminal in the UK doesn't have a gun; it's too hard and expensive to acquire one.

It is against the law for criminals to buy guns in the US too.  Criminals, however, do not, by nature, follow the law.

Which is why we should legalize murder.  Laws are ineffective at preventing all murders.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1966 on: May 24, 2013, 12:16:08 AM »
Clearly the laws in an island country smaller than most U.S. states could easily be applied elsewhere!

I've not said anything about the 'how' just the 'why'. There's a whole screwed up cultural thing that you guys need to sort out.

No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime.

I don't disagree with the first part, but if a criminal tried to get a gun in the UK it would be a hell of a lot harder and more expensive. They'd have to go through a lot effort which means the average criminal in the UK doesn't have a gun; it's too hard and expensive to acquire one.

It is against the law for criminals to buy guns in the US too.  Criminals, however, do not, by nature, follow the law. 

I don't disagree with that, but, I'm willing to bet, it's a lot easier for a criminal in the US to acquire a gun than it is in the UK.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1967 on: May 24, 2013, 07:37:34 PM »

Well unless a civil war and a revolution are the exact same thing, I'm not sure you're right.

If they were literally the same phrase then you would have definitely gotten me there.



On a different note, it is a good thing there aren't guns in Britain. It keeps murders from happening in public.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938784/You-and-your-kids-are-next.html

Good thing no law abiding citizens had access to guns here, they might have shot the poor muslim man wielding a non threatening perfectly legal cleaver.

Revolution and civil war? Why would either of them be any better than the other within the context?

And how often do you think that happens in the UK?

This is just speculation, but if those two people had better access to firearms, an assault rifle for instance, instead of a machete and a hand gun (which I don't think worked, may have been fake) etc... do you think that situation might have been worse?

If anything it's a proponent for stricter gun control; it shows it works.
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1968 on: May 25, 2013, 12:02:07 AM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 12:06:06 AM by DDDDAts all folks »

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1969 on: May 25, 2013, 05:59:20 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1970 on: May 25, 2013, 07:51:36 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

They are aiding in mass murders and general crime?  I would not state that they are the sole downfall of our society, but they are a contributor to some pretty nasty shit.

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1971 on: May 25, 2013, 08:33:08 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

They are aiding in mass murders and general crime?  I would not state that they are the sole downfall of our society, but they are a contributor to some pretty nasty shit.

They may be used in some mass murders, but they aren't the cause. Mass murders are the symptoms of something in society, not the cause.

Obesity is killing more people each year than murders, forks could just as easily be used in your argument. Again, obesity and murders are the signs of something failing in society, not the causes of society being fucked up.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1972 on: May 25, 2013, 11:32:15 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

So do you think a society that's trying to arm itself for a possible civil war is stable?

Your society is trying to arm itself for a possible civil war, to me that indicates a fragile and unstable society. It's that instability that could lead to its downfall.

I would also argue that having to put armed guards in schools is a good indicator that your society is in a downward spiral as well.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:37:52 PM by DDDDAts all folks »

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1973 on: May 27, 2013, 03:11:43 AM »
Carried on from the Woolwich thread.

Why didn't anyone do something? Even if it meant personal injury, I would've rushed those fuckers with anything I could find.

Because people there do not carry guns.  Police had to come with guns to stop them.

Do you think those criminals would have been better armed if we let every tom dick and harry carry a gun in the UK?

Also:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/mar/25/guns-protection-national-rifle-association

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1974 on: May 28, 2013, 12:40:06 AM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

They are aiding in mass murders and general crime?  I would not state that they are the sole downfall of our society, but they are a contributor to some pretty nasty shit.

They may be used in some mass murders, but they aren't the cause. Mass murders are the symptoms of something in society, not the cause.

Obesity is killing more people each year than murders, forks could just as easily be used in your argument. Again, obesity and murders are the signs of something failing in society, not the causes of society being fucked up.

Only if this were discussion of suicide. 

I'm not suggesting that gun control is the solution, merely part of the solution. 

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1975 on: May 29, 2013, 10:10:09 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

So do you think a society that's trying to arm itself for a possible civil war is stable?

Your society is trying to arm itself for a possible civil war, to me that indicates a fragile and unstable society. It's that instability that could lead to its downfall.

I would also argue that having to put armed guards in schools is a good indicator that your society is in a downward spiral as well.

Again you bring up civil wars out of nowhere?

And now guns aren't the downfall of society? Armed guards are an indicator? Interesting.

You're really not able to prove any of your points are you?

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Raist

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1976 on: May 29, 2013, 10:12:11 PM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

They are aiding in mass murders and general crime?  I would not state that they are the sole downfall of our society, but they are a contributor to some pretty nasty shit.

They may be used in some mass murders, but they aren't the cause. Mass murders are the symptoms of something in society, not the cause.

Obesity is killing more people each year than murders, forks could just as easily be used in your argument. Again, obesity and murders are the signs of something failing in society, not the causes of society being fucked up.

Only if this were discussion of suicide. 

I'm not suggesting that gun control is the solution, merely part of the solution.

Murders can be committed with any weapon. Mass murders in the US weren't a problem until gun controls came into place. Back when kids were allowed to bring guns to school to hunt afterward, and colleges had organized gun events on campus (such as target shooting) these mass shootings simply didn't happen. Your solution is 100% against historical data.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1977 on: May 29, 2013, 11:46:28 PM »
Mass murders weren't a problem until technology had advanced enough to make it as "easy" (for lack of a better word) as it is today.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1978 on: May 30, 2013, 12:05:51 AM »
You brought up civil war out of nowhere, I'm honestly just trying to figure out where you pulled it out of your ass from.

Also, 10 posts later I'm still trying to figure out how guns are causing the fall of society. Guess we will never know.

Isn't that what the constitution is about? Giving the people the right to take arms just in case they need to fight the government?

So if you had to fight the government you wouldn't call it a civil war (or revolution, it doesn't matter)?

So you just throw it (or a revolution, it doesn't matter) then ask again. Classic.

Again, how are guns the downfall of our society.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined it.

So do you think a society that's trying to arm itself for a possible civil war is stable?

Your society is trying to arm itself for a possible civil war, to me that indicates a fragile and unstable society. It's that instability that could lead to its downfall.

I would also argue that having to put armed guards in schools is a good indicator that your society is in a downward spiral as well.

Again you bring up civil wars out of nowhere?

And now guns aren't the downfall of society? Armed guards are an indicator? Interesting.

You're really not able to prove any of your points are you?

Well I guess you'll never see it. I don't think I can explain it anymore simply than I have.

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Lorddave

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1979 on: May 30, 2013, 07:23:27 AM »
Mass murders weren't a problem until technology had advanced enough to make it as "easy" (for lack of a better word) as it is today.

This is mostly accurate. The only time it's not is when the mass killer has a large, unarmed,  and scared group of people who are trapped in an area with no help coming for several hours.

At that point, a mass shooter can use a single shot, bolt action rifle against 300 people and still Kill almost 100 people.
Gone.