Author Topic: Flights from South America to Australia  (Read 2110 times)

Offline dabbler

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Flights from South America to Australia
« on: January 30, 2013, 09:39:51 AM »
Hey,

So, we know we can feel acceleration (e.g. the Earth is accelerating upward, and it manifests as gravity). So, how are flights from the tip of South America to the tip of Australia so short (comparable to flights from northern Canada to northern Russia)? Shouldn't we feel much greater acceleration, since we'd have to be going much faster?

Thanks!

Offline dabbler

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2013, 06:00:31 PM »
...?

It's been a couple days, so I'm replying just to bring this post back up to the front of the Q&A. I couldn't find this in the FAQ, and ENaG doesn't really explain this phenomenon -- it only argues that great circles are not in fact the shortest paths.

Here, we see aeroplanes flying on paths shorter than possible under FET -- what's going on?

Thanks!

Offline SuperHater7810

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2013, 08:12:25 PM »
Don't expect a satisfying answer for this one.
Im a tractor

Offline Dinosaur Neil

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 03:46:02 AM »
Don't expect a satisfying answer for this one.

Shhh, Pongo will get you for saying things like that.
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Offline SuperHater7810

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 05:55:10 AM »
Oh noes!
Im a tractor

Offline dabbler

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 07:05:25 AM »
Well, the question still stands, guys.

This seems like a question that FET'ers would've thought of when they were crafting their model, which is why I put it in the Q&A. But if there's really no nice answer yet, I might move it to FET Debate.

Anyway.

Offline bowler

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 04:00:39 PM »
I had a quick go at this a while back.
1) Goto skyscanner get the times for some ultra-longhaul flights.
2) Take the longest time required as times can vary each way particularly a mid latitudes where there are jet streams (doesn't make a lot of difference but probably gives the bast case scenario for FET).
3) assume 550 mph ground speed (again upper estimate) usign ultra-long haul means that effects of take-off and landing are minimised
4) this gives you an estimate of the distance between a while bunch of cities.
5) plug into a linear solver to find the best fit positions of the cities
6) plot - makes some cool if not rather distorted pictures - probably the best way to make an FET map and a rather odd desktop pic.

edit - of course for FET optimize in two dimensions, for RET optimize in three dimensions on the surface of a sphere (much harder than FET)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 04:04:20 PM by bowler »

Offline Tausami

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 07:29:55 PM »
Sorry for the delay. This is genuinely the first time I've seen this thread. Just bad luck, I guess, and sceptimatic would probably stay away from it anyway. It requires actual logic  ::)

Anyway, the first thing to point out would be that actual flights from South Africa to Australia are relatively rare. It's not exactly a major airway. In addition, due to the fact that flights curve their paths to conserve fuel, it's not quite as bad as it first appears. However, it is still a serious issue for RET. I'm not sure how they've managed to conceal it for so long. We do have some hypotheses, but they are of course just hypotheses.

I should also note that Lord Wilmore has a model in which this is not a problem due to a very, very strange map that works surprisingly well.
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Offline Bollybill

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 07:58:51 PM »
Sorry for the delay. This is genuinely the first time I've seen this thread. Just bad luck, I guess, and sceptimatic would probably stay away from it anyway. It requires actual logic  ::)

Ha!

Anyway, where is the flaw for RET? Also, do you know where one could find that map? It sounds pretty interesting.
Why use evidence
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Offline nate5700

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 08:07:52 PM »
I should also note that Lord Wilmore has a model in which this is not a problem due to a very, very strange map that works surprisingly well.

Also, do you know where one could find that map? It sounds pretty interesting.

Second. I'd be pretty interested to see that map also. Southern hemisphere geography has seemed to me to be a problem for the flat-Earth model. Of course, you're right in that if FE is true, that would be a pretty big thing for the Black Council (bonus points for whoever gets the reference) to hide.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2013, 08:17:13 PM »
I should also note that Lord Wilmore has a model in which this is not a problem due to a very, very strange map that works surprisingly well.

is there discussion around here anywhere?

the southern hemisphere distance thing is a stumbling block for me as well. the tropic of capricorn is like way longer than the tropic of cancer.

Offline Pongo

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2013, 08:24:09 PM »
Hey,

So, we know we can feel acceleration (e.g. the Earth is accelerating upward, and it manifests as gravity). So, how are flights from the tip of South America to the tip of Australia so short (comparable to flights from northern Canada to northern Russia)? Shouldn't we feel much greater acceleration, since we'd have to be going much faster?

Thanks!

A few factors all culminate to lead to the notion that flight times must take longer going from X to Y on a flat-earth model. First, you are erroneously attributing the flat-earth maps you've seen as factual maps. They are not how we think the flat-earth looks, they are simply an aid for one to understand the concept. We do not have a definitive flat-earth map as the world has only been mapped under a false round-earth model.

Granted, on a flat-earth the distances would likely be longer on the flights in question, and for this, we has jet streams to thank. They shorten the travel time on flights in the Southern Hemiplain.

Lastly, or at least the last factor I'll be addressing, the consumption of alcohol is common place on long flights and will alter ones perception of time and distance.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2013, 09:20:25 PM »
Lastly, or at least the last factor I'll be addressing, the consumption of alcohol is common place on long flights and will alter ones perception of time and distance.

i can vouch for this.

Offline Manarq

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 04:57:47 AM »
Hey,

So, we know we can feel acceleration (e.g. the Earth is accelerating upward, and it manifests as gravity). So, how are flights from the tip of South America to the tip of Australia so short (comparable to flights from northern Canada to northern Russia)? Shouldn't we feel much greater acceleration, since we'd have to be going much faster?

Thanks!

A few factors all culminate to lead to the notion that flight times must take longer going from X to Y on a flat-earth model. First, you are erroneously attributing the flat-earth maps you've seen as factual maps. They are not how we think the flat-earth looks, they are simply an aid for one to understand the concept. We do not have a definitive flat-earth map as the world has only been mapped under a false round-earth model.

Granted, on a flat-earth the distances would likely be longer on the flights in question, and for this, we has jet streams to thank. They shorten the travel time on flights in the Southern Hemiplain.

Lastly, or at least the last factor I'll be addressing, the consumption of alcohol is common place on long flights and will alter ones perception of time and distance.

The major jet streams flow from west to east, how do they take advantage of these going east to west?

Also I didn't realise that blood alcohol level affected how a watch keeps time or makes the people waiting to pick someone up not notice that they're late
I'd like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!

Offline dabbler

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2013, 07:07:26 AM »
Hey,

A few factors all culminate to lead to the notion that flight times must take longer going from X to Y on a flat-earth model. First, you are erroneously attributing the flat-earth maps you've seen as factual maps. They are not how we think the flat-earth looks, they are simply an aid for one to understand the concept. We do not have a definitive flat-earth map as the world has only been mapped under a false round-earth model.

Okay, that makes sense. However, we can rule out an "antarctica-outside" or "antarctica-inside" FET model, since flight times are comparable. Thus the rim of the Earth can't a pole... where else do you know that hasn't been visited by most people?

Also, Manarq makes good points (jet streams should only affect flights from A to B; in the opposite direction we should be going slower), and we should also be feeling that acceleration (the acceleration that the jet stream exerts on us).

Thanks.

Offline Echosystem

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2013, 09:49:48 AM »
Hey,

So, we know we can feel acceleration (e.g. the Earth is accelerating upward, and it manifests as gravity). So, how are flights from the tip of South America to the tip of Australia so short (comparable to flights from northern Canada to northern Russia)? Shouldn't we feel much greater acceleration, since we'd have to be going much faster?

Thanks!

A few factors all culminate to lead to the notion that flight times must take longer going from X to Y on a flat-earth model. First, you are erroneously attributing the flat-earth maps you've seen as factual maps. They are not how we think the flat-earth looks, they are simply an aid for one to understand the concept. We do not have a definitive flat-earth map as the world has only been mapped under a false round-earth model.

Granted, on a flat-earth the distances would likely be longer on the flights in question, and for this, we has jet streams to thank. They shorten the travel time on flights in the Southern Hemiplain.

Lastly, or at least the last factor I'll be addressing, the consumption of alcohol is common place on long flights and will alter ones perception of time and distance.

I think this post accurately portrays the mindset you must acquire to accept the FE. If this was even remotely true, and we were to test the distance of two points by the time taken in an airplane, would it not occur to you to check whether or not you're riding in a significantly faster aircraft one of the ways? And you're second point is so absurd, I hesitated even mentioning it. As if there are no modern ways of telling time over the ocean because anytime anyone takes a long flight they get slammed.

You had mentioned that when you first came here to read about this, you thought it was blatantly obvious that these people were off their rocker, but after a while you slowly started believing after months of reading debates. I find it funny that you have mentioned "People just accepting what their told and not /"Questioning/" it",  because the types of arguments I've seen used so far are specifically targeted at people who just accept things before thinking them through. These Pseudoscience claims are so far from actuality, you barely have to gouge the surface before you realize they are all paper thin. It's like asking a creationist who claims the universe must have a creator, who the creator of god was, and you'll get this pseudoscience response, "he always existed, he doesn't need a creator" which sounds good to the average Joe who doesn't think about it, but then you realize, oh wait, that makes no bloody sense!

That is all.

Offline Dinosaur Neil

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2013, 10:35:40 AM »

I should also note that Lord Wilmore has a model in which this is not a problem due to a very, very strange map that works surprisingly well.

Lord Wilmore's map does not work. The conventional FE map is far superior, and explains stellar rotation around the north pole, as well as the path of the sun.
Founder member of the League Of Scientific Gentlemen.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2013, 06:26:27 PM »
can anybody see this map, or is it secret?

Offline geepun92

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 09:58:19 PM »
Wilmore's map will leave you with more questions... Its basically just projection of a round earth to a flat earth that keeps area constant... Similar to Mercators, cant remember name of projection

Offline nate5700

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Re: Flights from South America to Australia
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 04:27:47 PM »
Wilmore's map will leave you with more questions... Its basically just projection of a round earth to a flat earth that keeps area constant... Similar to Mercators, cant remember name of projection

I don't think it would be a Mercator projection, that one decidedly does not leave area constant.

I tried searching for it with no luck. My search-fu on this site seems pretty weak. I'm not really liking the search function so far, I may have to start using Google with the "site:" argument.