The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA

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RealScientist

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2013, 07:51:49 PM »
I looked for a peer reviewed paper showing that the Earth is round. I couldn't find it.
If you have access to the right sources, you can easily find peer reviewed papers which include, at the very least, evidence about the following:
- satellite acquired information about Earth's magnetic fields, gravitational field, pollutants, reflection of every kind of electromagnetic wave, and lots of other things. In each case, the information is referred to Earth's globe.
- the latest information about the Sun, with permanently improving information that is only consistent with a Sun that is thousands of times larger than the Earth.
- the ever improving information about our galaxy.
- the reports on neutrinos passing through Earth and being detected in different labs around the world.

And so much more, it would take me years just to make a reasonable list.

All of the above makes sense only in conjunction with the rest of what you call "RE theory". You cannot have any of the above magically working with no satellites and every star being a minuscule dot of light 3000 miles above us, or with a 32 mile Sun.

In fact, it is quite simple to find peer reviewed papers with actual diagrams of the Earth just as it is. When you try to change the shape of the Earth you  are, in fact, trying to invalidate thousands or millions of peer reviewed papers.

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 09:05:18 PM »
http://lss.fnal.gov/conf/C0406141/nakahata.pdf

This isn't the peer reviewed paper but the pictures are prettier, slide 4 is your 'money shot' as it were.

Also FET isn't really a theory it's a conspiracy. There are pictures of the Earth from space on t-shirts, disbelieving this is a straight choice not a result of any kind of empirical measurement.

The Conspiracy is not the point of FET, nor is it universally recognized. In fact, it is not a facet of FET at all, hence the fact that we only discuss it in FEG.


maybe it should be removed from the FAQ then?

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markjo

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2013, 05:28:56 AM »
http://lss.fnal.gov/conf/C0406141/nakahata.pdf

This isn't the peer reviewed paper but the pictures are prettier, slide 4 is your 'money shot' as it were.

Also FET isn't really a theory it's a conspiracy. There are pictures of the Earth from space on t-shirts, disbelieving this is a straight choice not a result of any kind of empirical measurement.

The Conspiracy is not the point of FET, nor is it universally recognized. In fact, it is not a facet of FET at all, hence the fact that we only discuss it in FEG.

Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 05:30:34 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2013, 03:49:33 PM »
http://lss.fnal.gov/conf/C0406141/nakahata.pdf

This isn't the peer reviewed paper but the pictures are prettier, slide 4 is your 'money shot' as it were.

Also FET isn't really a theory it's a conspiracy. There are pictures of the Earth from space on t-shirts, disbelieving this is a straight choice not a result of any kind of empirical measurement.

The Conspiracy is not the point of FET, nor is it universally recognized. In fact, it is not a facet of FET at all, hence the fact that we only discuss it in FEG.

Please explain the Apollo missions and other space probes without reference to a conspiracy, then.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 05:42:53 PM »
You're exactly right, Lord Wilmore!  I shouldn't have said winning.  Because to most people on this planet this was settled long ago.  And the shape of the Earth is history.  Truth won; move on.


You fail to understand a simple criticism, never mind that a more complex one can be leveled against this nonsense. What kind of scientist believes in outright victory?


Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).


No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 06:20:20 PM »
Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).

No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.

In the same way that Hollow Earth Theory believers do not necessarily represent mainstream RET, those several FE'ers who do not believe in the conspiracy do not necessarily represent mainstream FET (if there is such a thing).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2013, 11:29:24 AM »

Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).


No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.

I again make the request that a Society member who does not believe in the conspiracy please put forth an explanation for the Apollo Missions and other space probes. Or another to state their explanation on their behalf.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2013, 05:07:34 PM »
Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).

No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.

In the same way that Hollow Earth Theory believers do not necessarily represent mainstream RET, those several FE'ers who do not believe in the conspiracy do not necessarily represent mainstream FET (if there is such a thing).


Sorry, but this is nonsense. Who is talking about representation? Belief in the Conspiracy is evidently not a requisite for believing that the Earth is flat, as many FE'ers do not believe in the Conspiracy but nevertheless believe that the Earth is flat. Q.E.D.


Furthermore, your comparison is a simple category error. I do not dispute that FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy are FE'ers. They believe that the Earth is flat, ergo, they are FE'ers. Similarly, HE'ers believe that the Earth is round, ergo, they are RE'ers.


Your claim was that "the conspiracy is an integral part of FET". Obviously that is not the case, as above, no more than it is the case that believing the Earth to be hollow is an integral part of RET.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 05:41:03 PM »
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Who is talking about representation? Belief in the Conspiracy is evidently not a requisite for believing that the Earth is flat, as many FE'ers do not believe in the Conspiracy but nevertheless believe that the Earth is flat. Q.E.D.

Furthermore, your comparison is a simple category error. I do not dispute that FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy are FE'ers. They believe that the Earth is flat, ergo, they are FE'ers. Similarly, HE'ers believe that the Earth is round, ergo, they are RE'ers.

Your claim was that "the conspiracy is an integral part of FET". Obviously that is not the case, as above, no more than it is the case that believing the Earth to be hollow is an integral part of RET.

Actually, the earth not being hollow is integral to RET.  Hollow Earth Theory is a fringe RE theory because contradicts this tenet.  In this same way, non-conspiracy FET is a fringe FE theory. 

Come now Wilmore, you know that the vast majority of FE'ers do believe in the conspiracy.  Sometimes I think that you enjoy picking tedious, semantic fights more than I do.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 09:18:40 PM »

Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).


No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.

I again make the request that a Society member who does not believe in the conspiracy please put forth an explanation for the Apollo Missions and other space probes. Or another to state their explanation on their behalf.

I really want to do/say things worthy of a ban to Donisour Niel.  Instead I am going to make a low content post and memberate myself.

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 01:28:00 PM »

Actually, the conspiracy is an integral part of FET.  It's what allows FE'ers to dismiss any evidence that contradicts FET (most notably, any otherwise irrefutable evidence provided by the various space agencies of the world).


No it is not, as the several FE'ers who do not believe in the Conspiracy demonstrate. Please stop being so inane; you have no excuse.

I again make the request that a Society member who does not believe in the conspiracy please put forth an explanation for the Apollo Missions and other space probes. Or another to state their explanation on their behalf.

I really want to do/say things worthy of a ban to Donisour Niel.  Instead I am going to make a low content post and memberate myself.

Well, I guess the claim that there are Society members who don't believe in the conspiracy has been revealed as a flat out lie then, has it not?
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RealScientist

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 02:27:55 PM »
Belief in the Conspiracy is evidently not a requisite for believing that the Earth is flat, as many FE'ers do not believe in the Conspiracy but nevertheless believe that the Earth is flat. Q.E.D.
This is absolutely not the point that is being discussed, but rather a silly word game. "Belief" in the Conspiracy (or just about any other belief on anything) is not a requisite for just about anything. Having evidence, or at least a very good explanation, for specific aspects of "FET" is a requisite for useful discussion about FET.

I can believe in anything I like, like the ancient Greek Gods for example, and still argue about modern Physics. But I cannot just "believe" or not in a Conspiracy which fools us all about modern Physics and still argue modern Physics with Conspiracy included.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 06:54:08 PM »
This is absolutely not the point that is being discussed, but rather a silly word game. "Belief" in the Conspiracy (or just about any other belief on anything) is not a requisite for just about anything. Having evidence, or at least a very good explanation, for specific aspects of "FET" is a requisite for useful discussion about FET.

I can believe in anything I like, like the ancient Greek Gods for example, and still argue about modern Physics. But I cannot just "believe" or not in a Conspiracy which fools us all about modern Physics and still argue modern Physics with Conspiracy included.


Congratulations, this is better than what markjo was posting. Unfortunately, I was discussing something with markjo, namely his post, so that is precisely what was being discussed. Moreover, you have provided nothing to support markjo's original claim, which is what I took issue with. Please don't come in here and pretend I've been arguing against a strawman, as opposed to what markjo explicitly said.


Moving on from that, you haven't provided anything to support this new, independent argument that you have presented. For the truth is, those who do not believe in the Conspiracy have provided arguments as to why on many occasions, against both FE'ers and RE'ers. If you take issue with those arguments, counter them. But don't pretend they don't exist.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2013, 02:36:55 AM »
For the truth is, those who do not believe in the Conspiracy have provided arguments as to why on many occasions, against both FE'ers and RE'ers. If you take issue with those arguments, counter them. But don't pretend they don't exist.

Lord Wilmore, can you direct me with a helpful link to some info where someone who does not believe in the conspiracy puts out an explanation of pictures of Earth from space? I notice from your earlier post that you are in favour of the exchange of ideas.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2013, 07:04:59 PM »
Search John's posts, for example. Or just ask iwanttobelieve et al.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2013, 05:51:23 AM »
Sooooo... We not gonna get any peer reviewed evidence from the FES then?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2013, 09:42:48 PM »
Actually, the earth not being hollow is integral to RET.  Hollow Earth Theory is a fringe RE theory because contradicts this tenet.  In this same way, non-conspiracy FET is a fringe FE theory.


I somehow missed this, but it should be addressed. You acknowledge that HET is a fringe theory within RET. Now, if something is integral to RET, then RET cannot do without it. If HET is part of RET, then clearly RET does not require that the Earth is hollow, as is obvious when one considers that the propose a round, yet hollow, Earth.


Similarly with the Conspiracy and FET.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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RealScientist

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2013, 05:38:30 AM »
Actually, the earth not being hollow is integral to RET.  Hollow Earth Theory is a fringe RE theory because contradicts this tenet.  In this same way, non-conspiracy FET is a fringe FE theory.


I somehow missed this, but it should be addressed. You acknowledge that HET is a fringe theory within RET. Now, if something is integral to RET, then RET cannot do without it. If HET is part of RET, then clearly RET does not require that the Earth is hollow, as is obvious when one considers that the propose a round, yet hollow, Earth.


Similarly with the Conspiracy and FET.
This is yet another word game with no basis in reality whatsoever. A hollow Earth denies every thing we know about gravitation. And what you call "RE" really is what the rest of the world calls Science, which includes gravitation. Even if "FET" is a group of "theories" (more like unsubstantiated hypothesis) which only have a flat Earth as its common property, real Science does not have a group of theories under the umbrella of round Earths.

The "RET" that markjo mentions exists only in this forum, and follows the rules that the moderators have imposed, If you want to discuss about the real world, and not about the inner group of FES you just have to see hollow Earths as a very bad idea that nobody supports anymore, just like the four turtles and the elephant. Or we could require you FE'ers to show proof of the existence of the turtles every time you talk about a flat Earth.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2013, 07:45:53 PM »
All I'm saying is that theories that posit the rotundity of the Earth are Round Earth Theories, including HET. For an interesting discussion of this, listen to our most recent podcast:


http://theflatearthpodcast.podbean.com/2012/12/12/the-flat-earth-society-podcast-episode-4-with-guest-hollow-earth-expert-professor-darryl-jones/
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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RealScientist

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2013, 08:31:35 AM »
All I'm saying is that theories that posit the rotundity of the Earth are Round Earth Theories, including HET. For an interesting discussion of this, listen to our most recent podcast:


http://theflatearthpodcast.podbean.com/2012/12/12/the-flat-earth-society-podcast-episode-4-with-guest-hollow-earth-expert-professor-darryl-jones/
That would be good enough if you were not hijacking the word "theory" from science. "Hollow Earth Theory" and "Flat Earth Theory" are not theories in any scientific sense. "Round Earth Theory" does not even exist, since the knowledge about the shape of this planet is a result from scientific experiments and observations and not a scientific theory. Since it does not exist, it cannot have a subset called  HET, unless it is an empty set (which it kind of is).

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RealScientist

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2013, 10:15:50 AM »
All I'm saying is that theories that posit the rotundity of the Earth are Round Earth Theories, including HET. For an interesting discussion of this, listen to our most recent podcast:


http://theflatearthpodcast.podbean.com/2012/12/12/the-flat-earth-society-podcast-episode-4-with-guest-hollow-earth-expert-professor-darryl-jones/
In a surprisingly good literary review of Utopian literature using a hollow Earth scenario and a few comments about some ancient attempts at finding these Utopian worlds in real life, the one thing that was never mentioned was "that theories that posit the rotundity of the Earth are Round Earth Theories, including HET".

In fact, the very idea of a scientific theory was never mentioned. No arguments were made towards lending plausibility to any theory, whether from this forum or from science or from Hollow Earth Believers. It was a literary review, and a good one at that.

Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2013, 07:24:45 PM »
Truth came out victorious.  In Galileo/Copernicus' day there was the powerful church that tried to make a belief fact.  But you can't make people believe stuff. The truth will come out. The people heard teachings from different viewpoints and truth came out victorious.

Today there is no debate.  Virtually no debate.  You can go to one place. Here.  It's a time-warp.

Where Flat-earthers accuse Round-earthers are spoon fed the knowledge they have.  Do you have any idea how hard it would be to teach 7 billion people about a flat earth?  You'd have to teach 7 billion people about something you hardly know a thing about.

Diameter of the Earth? You don't know it? It could be infinite?

Aetheric winds?

Which map to use?

Not to mention... A Zetetic school would not teach.  Do you understand?  You cannot teach zetetic students.
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Tausami

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2013, 07:56:36 PM »
On the other hand, nobody is suggesting at least to my knowledge that FET be taught in schools. Teaching the controversies is an educationally destructive pursuit and a waste of time in anything other than history. Science should teach the most widely accepted theory of a topic, and only teach others as more than a side note if they have equal credence. Learning fringe theories should be left to enthusiasts, scholars, and the fringe theorists themselves. Schools have more important things to teach about.

When FET begins to gain more widespread belief, obviously the first goal will be to gain a strong backing in the scientific community and answer the questions we still have. By the time it's taught in schools these problems will not exist.

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Re: The motto - IN VERITATE VICTORIA
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2013, 02:20:20 PM »
To me, the motto is one of the most powerful mantras I would dare think of.