Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics

  • 42 Replies
  • 7077 Views
Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« on: January 04, 2011, 10:03:13 AM »
The second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system spontaneous processes lead to a decrease in order and organization.

Evolution on the other hand is supposed to move onwards and upwards from particles to molecules to simple life and finally arrive at man whose brain is the most complex, organized material in the universe.

Evolution then involves belief in a massive increase in order and organization, requiring a willing suspension of belief in the second law by evolutionists.

Moreover, evolution is said to result from chance changes to natural selection, with no input of more information. Hence it can be seen that the theory of evolution is directly at odds with the second law of thermodynamics which categorically states that things naturally move from order to disorder.

The Big Bang theory of the start of the universe violates the first law of thermodynamics by creating matter and energy out of nothing. It then violates the second law of thermodynamics by creating an ordered universe from an explosion. Explosions do not produce order, but chaos. The proposed Big Bang would have been a destructive event of unimaginable proportions, which could not have produced an ordered universe.

*

Offline EnigmaZV

  • 3471
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 10:07:29 AM »
Tell you what, you go measure the total energy of the universe, and if it's more than zero, plus or minus a few quantum fluctuations, I'll buy you a coke.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

*

Offline Beorn

  • ***
  • 6465
  • If I can't trust my eyes, what can I trust?
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 10:09:01 AM »
Oh my god I just got converted.
Yup.  Once you've had Dutch you never go.... non-Dutch.

Quote
Only one thing can save our future. Give Thork a BanHammer for Th*rksakes!

*

Offline Wendy

  • 18562
  • I laugh cus you fake
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 10:10:15 AM »
Oh hey, it's this "argument" again! I tell ya, it's like seeing an old friend now, every time somebody reposts this tripe.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 10:22:51 AM »
Quote
A change in the entropy (S) of a system is the infinitesimal transfer of heat (Q) to a closed system driving a reversible process, divided by the equilibrium temperature (T) of the system.

The second law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems. If you are continually adding energy (Sun), then it does not apply. If there was no sun or heat coming to the Earth, then yes, it would apply, given that everything would die out.

*

Offline ﮎingulaЯiτy

  • Quaternion Arbitrator
  • *****
  • 9071
  • Resident atheist.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 10:28:21 AM »
The second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system spontaneous processes lead to a decrease in order and organization.
It's not a closed system. See the sun for more information.

Edit: It would seem Trekky beat me to this.

Moreover, evolution is said to result from chance changes to natural selection, with no input of more information. Hence it can be seen that the theory of evolution is directly at odds with the second law of thermodynamics which categorically states that things naturally move from order to disorder.
Natural selection is not random.
Natural selection is a filter for random mutations. It is not random.
It is analogous to turning over cards in a deck and separating them into piles of blacks and reds. The color is random, the filter is not.

Quote
The Big Bang theory of the start of the universe violates the first law of thermodynamics by creating matter and energy out of nothing.
You're assuming the net energy in the universe isn't zero. Quantum mechanics constantly shows us it is quite common for a 0 to 'split' into 1 and negative 1.

Quote
It then violates the second law of thermodynamics by creating an ordered universe from an explosion. Explosions do not produce order, but chaos. The proposed Big Bang would have been a destructive event of unimaginable proportions, which could not have produced an ordered universe.
Why would you expect the aftermath of an explosion to not stabilize while it disperses?  ???
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 10:32:12 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 10:33:50 AM »
Natural selection is not random.
Natural selection is a filter for random mutations. It is not random.
It is analogous to turning over cards in a deck and separating them into piles of blacks and reds. The color is random, the filter is not.

I just came.

*

Offline Wendy

  • 18562
  • I laugh cus you fake
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 10:43:08 AM »
Also, the whole order vs entropic order thing.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 10:45:38 AM »
CLOSED System.


Moron.

*

Offline Wendy

  • 18562
  • I laugh cus you fake
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 10:49:17 AM »
Also, the whole order vs entropic order thing.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

*

Offline Dave

  • 80
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 10:56:40 AM »
Quote
The Big Bang theory of the start of the universe violates the first law of thermodynamics by creating matter and energy out of nothing. It then violates the second law of thermodynamics by creating an ordered universe from an explosion. Explosions do not produce order, but chaos. The proposed Big Bang would have been a destructive event of unimaginable proportions, which could not have produced an ordered universe.
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion of something out of nothing.  ::)
"None of you know what science is. That is why you argue over the net." ~ Truthseeker2

*

Offline Raist

  • *****
  • 30603
  • The cat in the Matrix
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »
The second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system spontaneous processes lead to a decrease in order and organization.



Thankfully we aren't in a closed system. The sun is bombarding us with energy.

As the rest of your post depended on your first sentence being right I think you are firmly proven wrong on every point.

*

Offline Eddy Baby

  • 10598
  • It went wherever I did go.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2011, 11:16:57 AM »
I wonder if anybody has mentioned that the Earth isn't a closed system.
I spent all of 5 minutes learning about bloody gods just before the exam and its bloody qeistions on fox hunting and abortions.

*

Offline Wendy

  • 18562
  • I laugh cus you fake
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 11:25:21 AM »
Only thrice, I think.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

*

Offline Vindictus

  • 5456
  • insightful personal text
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 11:59:00 AM »
God can violate any law he likes, but the Big Bang theory cannot.

This argument is a copy pasta from every evolution v creation board on the internet. You don't put the same effort into things anymore, Cass.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 12:08:08 PM »
HEY GUYS, I THINK THERMODYNAMICS MIGHT ONLY APPLY TO CLOSED SYSTEMS.

*

Offline Marcus Aurelius

  • 4546
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 12:11:26 PM »
Is this guy really cass?  What say you mods?  Do the IP's match?

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 12:12:16 PM »
God can violate any law he likes, but the Big Bang theory cannot.

This argument is a copy pasta from every evolution v creation board on the internet. You don't put the same effort into things anymore, Cass.

1. Not a "copy and pasta" from the internet. If it is paste me the link i copied it from?.

2. Who is Cass?

3. What does God have anything to with with this thread? Why bring it up?

4. Big Bang has many flaws, science has moved on past that theory.

5. Give the exact quote where i said the earth is a "closed system". I never said the earth was a closed system.

The earth is neither open or closed it is beyond either.

Quote
We all know that sunlight heats the surface of Earth.  For most practical purposes, however, Earth is a closed system.  Why is that?  The mass of the planet is essentially constant in time.  Molecules in our atmosphere are attracted to Earth by gravity and do not migrate off into space.  This is not true of the Moon or asteroids.

In broad terms, by contrast, Earth is definitely an open system.  How can that be?  Meteors strike the planet from time to time, bringing in matter from space.  Indeed, it is probable that Earth’s substantial iron core (and therefore its magnetic field, and therefore life as we know it) and the Moon owe their existence to an impact between Earth and a massive asteroid about 4 billion years ago.


6. Trying reading what is typed instead of making assumptions!

*

Offline EnigmaZV

  • 3471
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 12:27:02 PM »

5. Give the exact quote where i said the earth is a "closed system". I never said the earth was a closed system.

The earth is neither open or closed it is beyond either.

If you're not assuming the Earth is a closed system, then the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply, and evolution cannot violate it.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 12:34:20 PM »
The Big Bang theory does not theorize about the creation of the Universe. It theorizes about its expansion. There is no accepted theory about where stuff came from, only that is was once small and is now big. That is, in essence, the Big Bang theory.

And, Earth is most definitely an open system. It gains energy, which is enough. It doesn't need to gain mass to be an open system.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 01:13:50 PM »
Quote
2. Who is Cass?

You or a practically identical poster.

Quote
3. What does God have anything to with with this thread? Why bring it up?

I'm already regretting asking this but what do you propose as an evolution alternative?

Quote
4. Big Bang has many flaws, science has moved on past that theory.

Not quite, it's been refined but the basic premise that all energy and mass in this universe originated from a small point hasn't really changed

Quote
5. Give the exact quote where i said the earth is a "closed system". I never said the earth was a closed system.

Exactly, the 2LTd only applies to closed systems.
Quote
The earth is neither open or closed it is beyond either.

Wrong. Also: Nonsensical.

Quote
We all know that sunlight heats the surface of Earth.  For most practical purposes, however, Earth is a closed system.  Why is that?  The mass of the planet is essentially constant in time.  Molecules in our atmosphere are attracted to Earth by gravity and do not migrate off into space.  This is not true of the Moon or asteroids.

Energy is radiated into space all the time.

It's how this picture is possible:

Quote
6. Trying reading what is typed instead of making assumptions!

Re-read. Twice. You're still wrong.

*

Offline Vindictus

  • 5456
  • insightful personal text
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 01:49:58 PM »

1. Not a "copy and pasta" from the internet. If it is paste me the link i copied it from?.

2. Who is Cass?

3. What does God have anything to with with this thread? Why bring it up?

4. Big Bang has many flaws, science has moved on past that theory.

5. Give the exact quote where i said the earth is a "closed system". I never said the earth was a closed system.

The earth is neither open or closed it is beyond either.



If you want to find another example of this argument, google 'evolution vs creationism'. There's at least one fundie on every forum that uses the Big bang/evolution and 2nd law argument. It's a tried and true troll argument, but it also sucks for plainly obvious reasons.

Given the amount of obvious problems with the argument, it isn't long before God is mentioned and the thread spirals into crap.

*

Offline Lorddave

  • 14565
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2011, 07:07:21 PM »
Evolution on the other hand is supposed to move onwards and upwards from particles to molecules to simple life and finally arrive at man whose brain is the most complex, organized material in the universe.

Since everyone else is covering the rest of your post I thought I'd start here....
Quote
Evolution on the other hand is supposed to move onwards and upwards from particles to molecules
WRONG!
Evolution only talks about the change in an organism.
Ambiogenesis is the creation of life from molecules.

Quote
man whose brain is the most complex, organized material in the universe.
Please cite this source.  The human brain is not only a sloppy collection of neurons that has no organization we can detect BUT it's also not a material.  Nerve cells aren't even a material.
Wanna know a really really organized material?  Diamonds.  Those carbon atoms are so perfectly organized you can see through them.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2011, 07:25:48 PM »
''Evolution only talks about the change in an organism.
Ambiogenesis is the creation of life from molecules''
====

Abiogenesis = the theory of organic evolution.

Like macroevolution this has never been observed though, so its not apart of science. Just another faith/speculation/assumption.
RETIRED

*

Offline Lorddave

  • 14565
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2011, 07:41:31 PM »
''Evolution only talks about the change in an organism.
Abiogenesis is the creation of life from molecules''
====

Abiogenesis = the theory of organic evolution.

Like macroevolution this has never been observed though, so its not apart of science. Just another faith/speculation/assumption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
Quote
n natural science, abiogenesis (pronounced /ˌeɪbaɪ.ɵˈdʒɛnɨsɪs/, AY-bye-oh-JEN-ə-siss) or biopoesis is the study of how life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes, and the method by which life on Earth arose.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/
Quote
biogenesis is the field of science dedicated to studying how life might have arisen for the first time on the primordial young Earth.

http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Abiogenesis
Quote
Abiogenesis is the proposal that life emerged from non-life.

http://darwiniana.org/abiogenesis.htm
Quote
Abiogenesis is about the origin of life. Evolution, technically, is about what happened after life arose on Earth.

http://creationwiki.org/Origin_of_life
Quote
Creationists believe that life was created by God, whereas the naturalists contend that organisms originated through purely natural processes from nonliving, inanimate material at some point in the very distant past. This theory is commonly known as abiogenesis (Greek a "without", bios "life", and genesis "beginning, origin").

Sorry for my misspelling but you really should learn the definition of a word BEFORE you respond to it.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2011, 08:09:06 PM »
6 different types of evolution

Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: minor variations/adapations

First 5 have never been observed, tested or repeated.

Only number 6 *microevolution is science.

You can still believe in the first 5 as your religion/faith though, but they are not science.
RETIRED

*

Offline berny_74

  • 1789
  • The IceWall! Beat that
    • View Profile
    • The Interstellar Light Collector
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 08:28:08 PM »

Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: minor variations/adapations
Only number 6 *microevolution is science.

You can still believe in the first 5 as your religion/faith though, but they are not science.

Nicholas Matzke and Paul R. Gross have accused creationists of using "strategically elastic" definitions of micro- and macroevolution when discussing the topic.[1] The actual definition of macroevolution accepted by scientists is "any change at the species level or above" (phyla, group, etc.) and microevolution is "any change below the level of species." Matzke and Gross state that many creationist critics define macroevolution as something that cannot be attained, as these critics describe any observed evolutionary change as "just microevolution".[1]

The reason why only "micro-evolution" is accepted by Creationists is that they just adjust the bar to suit their needs.

Quote
Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.

And I point you out to the humble skink

Of course you'll just move the bar a little bit again won't you.

Berny
Thinks Macro and Micro terms should be banned from evolutionary debates.


To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
Moonlight is good for you.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 09:28:37 PM »
6 different types of evolution

Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: minor variations/adapations

First 5 have never been observed, tested or repeated.

Only number 6 *microevolution is science.

You can still believe in the first 5 as your religion/faith though, but they are not science.

I swear to god, you're stealing from Kent Hovind.

Okay, here we go:

1. Cosmic evolution: No one has ever called what you're describing this. There is no set theory for the creation of the universe.

2. Chemical evolution: Happens all the time in the sun. It's called nuclear fusion. Hydrogen being converted to helium. Look at the sun sometime.

3. Stellar evolution: What, like a nebula? A stellar nursery where stars are forming?

4. Organic evolution: Abiogenesis, in other words. And there are several theories, but the fact is if we concede that supernatural is not science, then life had to come from somewhere.

5. Macroevolution: See fruit flies.

6. Microevolution

Five and six are under the same category of biological evolution, which is what we are discussing and run from the same process. Now please, keep on topic and stop bringing up totally separate processes that also have the word "evolution" in them.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 02:31:45 AM by Trekky0623 »

*

Offline Raist

  • *****
  • 30603
  • The cat in the Matrix
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2011, 02:07:54 AM »
6 different types of evolution

Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: minor variations/adapations

First 5 have never been observed, tested or repeated.

Only number 6 *microevolution is science.

You can still believe in the first 5 as your religion/faith though, but they are not science.

Cass, you just misdefined a word and now you are going to claim you are an expert on what is science? This is sad.

Re: Evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2011, 02:32:52 AM »
The chemical evolution one was pretty damn funny. It's like he doesn't look stuff up or something. Oh wait...