Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
I kind of see what you meant earlier. But it does not show that pendulum is affected by heavenly bodies when there is no eclipse. It may show to you only and only that it is affected by something during the eclipse.

Either the heavenly bodies are effecting the pendulums or they are not. If a spinning earth was responsible for the pendulum movement there would be no anomaly.
Monster Fail. You err in simple logic.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 03:13:23 PM »
So by your own evidence, we do not have VOE. Thanks for settling that.

I'm sure all the observations named in the paper I linked to were false. Feel free to write your own peer-reviewed rebuttal.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 03:22:10 PM »
So by your own evidence, we do not have VOE. Thanks for settling that.

I'm sure all the observations named in the paper I linked to were false. Feel free to write your own peer-reviewed rebuttal.
I find the summary of observation quite enough. It was great of you to find a succinct review for us. Its null conclusion made dismissing your folly all so easy. Just to repeat:
Quote
But before the cause of the Allais effect can be determined, scientists first need to settle the question about whether a pendulum really does act differently during a solar eclipse.
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Offline zork

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2010, 03:24:26 PM »
I kind of see what you meant earlier. But it does not show that pendulum is affected by heavenly bodies when there is no eclipse. It may show to you only and only that it is affected by something during the eclipse.

Either the heavenly bodies are effecting the pendulums or they are not. If a spinning earth was responsible for the pendulum movement there would be no anomaly.
Of course there would. How in the name of the Earth you deduce that? The normal situation is without the eclipse and the eclipse brings in some unknown variables and because of that the pendulum is affected. And the speculations are(from your link) that the effect may have been caused even by the moving human masses and then some more other variables here, on the Earth.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2010, 03:27:34 PM »
I kind of see what you meant earlier. But it does not show that pendulum is affected by heavenly bodies when there is no eclipse. It may show to you only and only that it is affected by something during the eclipse.

Either the heavenly bodies are effecting the pendulums or they are not. If a spinning earth was responsible for the pendulum movement there would be no anomaly.
Of course there would. How in the name of the Earth you deduce that? The normal situation is without the eclipse and the eclipse brings in some unknown variables and because of that the pendulum is affected. And the speculations are(from your link) that the effect may have been caused even by the moving human masses and then some more other variables here, on the Earth.
Good catch. I missed his error there. Thanks.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2010, 03:49:58 PM »
Either the heavenly bodies are effecting the pendulums or they are not. If a spinning earth was responsible for the pendulum movement there would be no anomaly.
Of course there would.

I should have said, "If a spinning earth alone was responsible ..."  I apologize.


Quote
And the speculations are(from your link) that the effect may have been caused even by the moving human masses and then some more other variables here, on the Earth.

The published paper I linked to (I could link to more on the phenomenon, but you're as capable of searching as I) is titled "A Review of Conventional Explanations of Anomalous Observations During Solar Eclipses. It dismisses all those theories as inadequate. "...all proposed conventional explanations fail to explain the observations either qualitatively or quantitatively..."
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Offline zork

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2010, 04:22:23 PM »
Either the heavenly bodies are effecting the pendulums or they are not. If a spinning earth was responsible for the pendulum movement there would be no anomaly.
Of course there would.

I should have said, "If a spinning earth alone was responsible ..."  I apologize.
Even if "a spinning earth alone is responsible" then there would be effect if some unknown forces come to play. Eclipse just disrupts the normal situation and who knows what may affects the pendulum. There is no way to deduce from that that some "heavenly bodies"(whatever they are, no one have elaborated on that) are affecting the pendulum.

Quote
And the speculations are(from your link) that the effect may have been caused even by the moving human masses and then some more other variables here, on the Earth.

The published paper I linked to (I could link to more on the phenomenon, but you're as capable of searching as I) is titled "A Review of Conventional Explanations of Anomalous Observations During Solar Eclipses. It dismisses all those theories as inadequate. "...all proposed conventional explanations fail to explain the observations either qualitatively or quantitatively..."
It kind of don't dismiss them. Proper quote is:

Although, despite all proposed conventional explanations fail to explain the observations either qualitatively or quantitatively, it is still possible that the reported anomalies will turn out to be due to a combination of some of these effects and instrumental errors. And, of course, there may be yet unidentified conventional causes which play a role.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2010, 04:30:23 PM »
The published paper I linked to (I could link to more on the phenomenon, but you're as capable of searching as I) is titled "A Review of Conventional Explanations of Anomalous Observations During Solar Eclipses. It dismisses all those theories as inadequate. "...all proposed conventional explanations fail to explain the observations either qualitatively or quantitatively..."
It kind of don't dismiss them. Proper quote is:

Although, despite all proposed conventional explanations fail to explain the observations either qualitatively or quantitatively, it is still possible that the reported anomalies will turn out to be due to a combination of some of these effects and instrumental errors. And, of course, there may be yet unidentified conventional causes which play a role.
Zork, I love having you on the RE team.

Well, Ski, this looks to me like you intentionally misquoted the author to make your case. For shame.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2010, 04:40:08 PM »
Good news REers! We have definitive evidence that the effect the Ski would have us believe does not exist. Please read this email from one of the leading researchers to see that the results from the 1999 eclipse were lackluster. There clearly is not enough evidence to support Ski.

Please reference: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/bl...oeverpaper.doc. Along with several marginal results, we read that he heard of:

Quote
a definitive 'null' result from the Max Planck Institute using an atomic clock during the eclipse, which saw no significant deviations from normal
.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2010, 05:13:03 PM »
There are literally dozens of observations from around the world in peer-reviewed papers regarding pendulum anomalies and you pick one hearsay report of an atomic clock that showed no "significant" deviation, whatever that means in this context.


The following article lists several observations and citations.
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf074/sf074a05.htm
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2010, 05:22:03 PM »
There are literally dozens of observations from around the world in peer-reviewed papers regarding pendulum anomalies and you pick one hearsay report of an atomic clock that showed no "significant" deviation, whatever that means in this context.


The following article lists several observations and citations.
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf074/sf074a05.htm
Please reference one peer-reviewed paper regarding pendulum anomalies that concludes that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.

By the way, if you don't know what "no significant deviation" means in this context, you really should study statistics before debating such a scientific topic.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2010, 05:31:39 PM »

Please reference one peer-reviewed paper regarding pendulum anomalies that concludes that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v3/i4/p823_1


Quote
By the way, if you don't know what "no significant deviation" means in this context, you really should study statistics before debating such a scientific topic.

I don't know what "significant deviation" in regards to an atomic clock would have with pendulums, no.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2010, 05:54:13 PM »

Please reference one peer-reviewed paper regarding pendulum anomalies that concludes that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v3/i4/p823_1
I see no conclusion that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
Quote
Quote
By the way, if you don't know what "no significant deviation" means in this context, you really should study statistics before debating such a scientific topic.

I don't know what "significant deviation" in regards to an atomic clock would have with pendulums, no.

You might consider that the x-axis is time of the observation. The y would be the deviation in distance of the bob. The hypothesis is that the y is related to the time of eclipses.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2010, 06:03:45 PM »
I see no conclusion that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
Quote
www.rif.org
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Offline General Disarray

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2010, 06:05:30 PM »
I see no conclusion that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
Quote
www.rif.org


So you must resort to insults when you are losing the argument rather than actually support your position, I see.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2010, 06:06:14 PM »
I see no conclusion that Foucault Pendulums behave abnormally.
www.rif.org

I challenge you. Quote that conclusion, in particular, that FPs behave abnormally.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 06:22:08 PM by ClockTower »
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2010, 06:15:43 PM »

Quote
During the solar eclipse of 7 March 1970, readings were taken and recorded electronically of the times required for the torsion pendulum to rotate through a given fixed part of its path, involving both clockwise and counterclockwise motions, on its first swing from rest. Significant variations in these times were observed during the course of the eclipse as well as in the hours just preceding and just following the eclipse itself.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2010, 06:23:45 PM »

Quote
During the solar eclipse of 7 March 1970, readings were taken and recorded electronically of the times required for the torsion pendulum to rotate through a given fixed part of its path, involving both clockwise and counterclockwise motions, on its first swing from rest. Significant variations in these times were observed during the course of the eclipse as well as in the hours just preceding and just following the eclipse itself.

You fail. There's no conclusion in that 29-year-old quote.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2010, 06:27:46 PM »
So your conclusion is that they wrote a peer-reviewed paper to say the observations weren't anomalous despite "significant variations"?

Here's a more recent paper for you:

A confirmation of the Allais and Jeverdan-Rusu-Antonescu effects during the solar eclipse from 22 September 2006 , and the quantization of behaviour of pendulum
V. A. Popescu, D. Olenici
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2010, 06:33:44 PM »
So your conclusion is that they wrote a peer-reviewed paper to say the observations weren't anomalous despite "significant variations"?

Here's a more recent paper for you:

A confirmation of the Allais and Jeverdan-Rusu-Antonescu effects during the solar eclipse from 22 September 2006 , and the quantization of behaviour of pendulum
V. A. Popescu, D. Olenici
I don't conclude that FPs behave abnormally based on inconclusive datasets. Why do you? What scientist agrees with you that FPs behave abnormally?
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2010, 06:35:03 PM »
Do you know what the Allais or Jeverdan-Rusu-Antonescu effect are?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 06:44:42 PM »
Do you know what the Allais or Jeverdan-Rusu-Antonescu effect are?
Yes. Do you have a scientist you concludes that there is such an effect?
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 06:49:36 PM »
Certainly Maurice Allais did. As do several people who have written papers confirming the effect.

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 07:00:35 PM »
Certainly Maurice Allais did. As do several people who have written papers confirming the effect.
You're confusing the scientific effort to report observations with the scientific analysis of the data. We need enough well-designed, well-recorded variances linked with the eclipse (or some other alignment) to make the conclusion.

Pointing us to an observation that is (marginally) significant doesn't show the conclusion, especially with NASA and NIST saying that they don't see the variation.
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 07:12:40 PM »
The Foucault Pendulum, which tracks the Earth's rotation, has exhibited peculiar movements during the time of a solar eclipse. These movements have been known for some 50 years. However, so far no explanation has been presented to explain the movements.

The question is why is it occurring?

Incidentally, NASA never released the 1999 data on the worldwide experiment(s). Why is that? Dr. David Noever (Rhodes scholar, and a leading theoretical physicist concerning gravity for NASA who headed the experiment) later left NASA after the results have disappeared -- Why?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2010, 07:27:41 PM »
The Foucault Pendulum, which tracks the Earth's rotation, has exhibited peculiar movements during the time of a solar eclipse. These movements have been known for some 50 years. However, so far no explanation has been presented to explain the movements.

The question is why is it occurring?

Incidentally, NASA never released the 1999 data on the worldwide experiment(s). Why is that? Dr. David Noever (Rhodes scholar, and a leading theoretical physicist concerning gravity for NASA who headed the experiment) later left NASA after the results have disappeared -- Why?
No, the question is: is it occurring?

I already provided the email on the 1999 data. Clearly it's inconclusive.

I infer Noever found that he didn't have anything worth publishing.

Why don't you friend Dr. David Noever on Facebook and ask him why he left NASA?

By the way, I looked over his publications. He never was a leading theoretical physicist concerning gravity for NASA. Will you please stop making things up?
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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2010, 07:48:14 PM »
The article which you "cited" was written before the experiment. How, pray tell did you provide the data? It only proves you didn't read the article.

Noever has a doctorate from Oxford in theoretical physics. He headed the Allais experiment in 1999. He gave interviews on gravitational sheilding, and according to Wired, "He seemed to be the key figure trying to replicate Podkletnov's work."  Podkletnov being Dr Yevgeny Podkletnov who claims to have invented an anti-gravity device.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2010, 08:06:59 PM »
The article which you "cited" was written before the experiment. How, pray tell did you provide the data? It only proves you didn't read the article.

Noever has a doctorate from Oxford in theoretical physics. He headed the Allais experiment in 1999. He gave interviews on gravitational sheilding, and according to Wired, "He seemed to be the key figure trying to replicate Podkletnov's work."  Podkletnov being Dr Yevgeny Podkletnov who claims to have invented an anti-gravity device.
No, the email was after the experiments. Do pay attention.

Good news REers! We have definitive evidence that the effect the Ski would have us believe does not exist. Please read this email from one of the leading researchers to see that the results from the 1999 eclipse were lackluster. There clearly is not enough evidence to support Ski.

Please reference: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/bl...oeverpaper.doc. Along with several marginal results, we read that he heard of:

Quote
a definitive 'null' result from the Max Planck Institute using an atomic clock during the eclipse, which saw no significant deviations from normal
.
So you want to quote wired.com as a scientific source? Okay, you lose all credibility.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Offline Ski

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Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2010, 08:13:34 PM »
Perhaps you'd be good enough to provide a working link for the email.


If you're suggesting Wired did not interview Dr. Noever and meet him at the lab exploring various anti-gravity devices NASA had constructed, please let me know your reasons for doing so.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Given two threads, we now know that the Earth is round
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2010, 08:32:06 PM »
Perhaps you'd be good enough to provide a working link for the email.


If you're suggesting Wired did not interview Dr. Noever and meet him at the lab exploring various anti-gravity devices NASA had constructed, please let me know your reasons for doing so.
Try: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/noever/noeverpaper.doc.

I'm not suggesting that. I am saying that Wired is not a scientific journal.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards